Anybody know the differance between CCI LR and Winchester LR primers? I am Handloading a 220 swift, Idenitical powdwer load, casing, and lead but two different primers are giving two different results with one problem, the win primer is protruding after firing but the CCI isn't. Any suggestions?
Primer Problems
- Thread starter browndusti
- Start date
The Winchester primer is said to be the hottest of it's type. Some writers have reported pressure boost in the neighborhood of 5000 PSI with them. Wheteher that is causing your problem you will only know by reducing the load and doing a work up with the WLR primer to see if it is common at all load levels or just at or about the level you were initially using. New brass or how many previous reloads???? Did you use a batch of brass where the pockets are already loose?
Two things come to mind that could affect things.
The first is that your sizing die is not set quite right and you have set the shoulder back a bit increasing head space. The second is that your chamber needs a good cleaning and what you are seeing is the result of the case being pushed forward at the firing pin strike and then the case expanding and holding tightly to the dirty chamber wall and not setting back to the bolt face. This then lets the primer move back a bit. This is assuming your pressures are actually quite a bit lower than maximum. Also assuming you know the rifle to be within proper headspace specs. If in doubt get a gunsmith with proper gauges to check the rifle. Do a thorough case examination and see if you can see any signs that would indicate high pressure first though before you consider increasing the load. Other than protruding are there any signs on the primer that would indicate high pressure like cratering, flaring at the edge etc..?
As it was virgin brass and worked on the first firing but not on the reload I have to wonder about your sizing die adjustment. Smoke or ink mark a re-sized empty case on the neck and shoulder and chamber it and then remove and examine to see where the case is making contact in the shoulder area.
The first is that your sizing die is not set quite right and you have set the shoulder back a bit increasing head space. The second is that your chamber needs a good cleaning and what you are seeing is the result of the case being pushed forward at the firing pin strike and then the case expanding and holding tightly to the dirty chamber wall and not setting back to the bolt face. This then lets the primer move back a bit. This is assuming your pressures are actually quite a bit lower than maximum. Also assuming you know the rifle to be within proper headspace specs. If in doubt get a gunsmith with proper gauges to check the rifle. Do a thorough case examination and see if you can see any signs that would indicate high pressure first though before you consider increasing the load. Other than protruding are there any signs on the primer that would indicate high pressure like cratering, flaring at the edge etc..?
As it was virgin brass and worked on the first firing but not on the reload I have to wonder about your sizing die adjustment. Smoke or ink mark a re-sized empty case on the neck and shoulder and chamber it and then remove and examine to see where the case is making contact in the shoulder area.
I set my resizing die too 5 thou with a precision mic. I don't think it is a headspace problem as only win primers protrude. exact load ( lot, brass, lead, powder) but witha cci primer it doesn't protrude.
thanks for awnsering i'm still new to the bench
thanks for awnsering i'm still new to the bench
- Location
- North Thompson, B.C.
Another thought - I have used WLR exclusivelyfor quite a few years, and had a good supply of the old plated ones on hand. I ran out of them this winter, and was using CCI BR2 until I bought a supply of the newer brass coloured WLR. I noticed that these(WLR) went into the pockets pretty easily, so I checked them both with the micrometer. With the batches I have, the newer WLR are a good .001” smaller in diameter than the CCI. So they fit looser, at least before firing. Might have something to do with it.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
If the primer is protruding after firing it is a sign that there is not enough pressure to set the case head back against the bolt face to drive the primer back into the primer pocket. I think the CCI's are slightly larger in diameter than the Winchester primers, and that could account for why they did not push out. If this is in fact the cause of your protruding primer, you must be quite a bit below the minimum suggested charge unless you are shooting cast.
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Read your reloading manual.
I wonder why people always report these situations piecemeal. The load is all the same except for the the primer (and now the bullet , and anything else you've failed to pass on). Yes, is the answer it could make a difference but the difference could go either way any time you change an individual component.
Some where along the line you have to try to analyze what is in front of you. My best guess is that you are operating at too low pressure but without having your rifle, your expended brass etc., all we can do is offer an opinion which could be incorrect and then who would you blame for the consequence?
The different manufacturers offer their own reloading guides and it is a good idea to accumulate as many as you can afford and also to read the contents so you can analyze what is happening. So far you haven't reported the powder number you are using or the quantity so what did you really expect to hear? I'm also curious to know what you measured with your precision micrometer that evaluated your re-sizing within .005. That dimension could be too little or way too much depending on what you were measuring.
Some where along the line you have to try to analyze what is in front of you. My best guess is that you are operating at too low pressure but without having your rifle, your expended brass etc., all we can do is offer an opinion which could be incorrect and then who would you blame for the consequence?
The different manufacturers offer their own reloading guides and it is a good idea to accumulate as many as you can afford and also to read the contents so you can analyze what is happening. So far you haven't reported the powder number you are using or the quantity so what did you really expect to hear? I'm also curious to know what you measured with your precision micrometer that evaluated your re-sizing within .005. That dimension could be too little or way too much depending on what you were measuring.
I know with my .223 and 6BR I will see flat primers with a med load and rounded primers with the beginning loads and upper loads. Pressures will change as you come up to or near compressed loads.
Try working up loads from min to max with the Win primers and see where they stop backing out. Might just be a .5grn of powder that makes the difference.
Try a different lot of Win primers as well, might be there that the lot you bought was undersized by a thou.
Listing what rifle, powder and amount, cases and bullets you are using might help someone help you solve the problem.
Try working up loads from min to max with the Win primers and see where they stop backing out. Might just be a .5grn of powder that makes the difference.
Try a different lot of Win primers as well, might be there that the lot you bought was undersized by a thou.
Listing what rifle, powder and amount, cases and bullets you are using might help someone help you solve the problem.
Well the bullet has been the same in all my loads. The only component that was changed in my loads was the primer. the only differance is cci vs win. I blame abslolutely no one for their opinions as it is too my discretion to accept them. how ever i do appreciate all inputs from everyone as i do not know everthing yet. I have read my nosler # 6 manual. It has no information on protruding primers. i have set my shoulder of my cases back 005 according the directions that came with the precision mic. HOWEVER this is the first precision mic i have ever owned and am not 100% familiar with it yet. and before i am asked i used 7 casings, measured before and after FL resizing.
browndusti: Before you worry about setting the shoulder back, does a fired case that has not been re-sized chamber freely? If it does then you really don't have to do any additional setting back. Just neck size the case. In any event only size as much as is required to chamber the case. Do it by feel when closing the bolt rather than trying to measure the case to the datum point which is usually midway down the shoulder. It would take pretty sophisticated equipment to do this accurately. Perhaps you have more than a micrometer?
With a minimum load as you state with either combination you are using you are probably not really getting such extreme case elongation as you will at a maximum load. Additionally, there is a bit of brass rebound after gas pressure is removed from the rifle. So if it rebounded .002 or .003 or whatever, and then you set it back an additional .005 you now have room for the primer to back out.
Rather than thinking the primer is making the difference consider that the re-sizing is doing it. It's not impossible for it to be the primer but normally the case should set back tight to the bolt face and prevent the primer from backing out unless there is enough space between the case and the chamber to allow the case to be pushed forward by the retreating primer. In which situation you have lost proper headspace from the re-sizing of the case.
With a minimum load as you state with either combination you are using you are probably not really getting such extreme case elongation as you will at a maximum load. Additionally, there is a bit of brass rebound after gas pressure is removed from the rifle. So if it rebounded .002 or .003 or whatever, and then you set it back an additional .005 you now have room for the primer to back out.
Rather than thinking the primer is making the difference consider that the re-sizing is doing it. It's not impossible for it to be the primer but normally the case should set back tight to the bolt face and prevent the primer from backing out unless there is enough space between the case and the chamber to allow the case to be pushed forward by the retreating primer. In which situation you have lost proper headspace from the re-sizing of the case.
OK i measured the diameter of the win/cci primers and found out that the cci is .001 bigger than the win. now if i gradually work up towards the max load and still see no differance in the primer protusion problem than i may have a worn out gun or i maybe have my FL sizer die set wrong? is there any other signs that i can look for to tell me if my dies are set wrong? if i have a low pressure problem than what signs can i look for? Unfortunitly i won't be shooting for a while as i crushed my trigger finger in a shop door yesterday afternoon so i will have a while to play with my dies.thanks browndusti
Theoretically maybe assuming cases are correct for the chamber. But, where is the space coming from that lets the primer back out and leave the cartridge case forward of the primer? What you are seeing is the face of the primer coming back to the bolt face but the case is not. Both the face of the primer and the face of the cartridge head should be making equal or very similar close contact with the bolt face if the cases are sized correctly and pressures are adequately high. Primers ofetn sit just below the face of the case and under normal circumstances they will all regardless of make be inclined to move back to the bolt face. If things are set correctly the primer and cartridge head should arrive at the bolt face on the same level. A grossly undersize primer is more likely to leak a bit of gas than back out if your case is sized correctly. A small difference in primer diameters between manufacturers is not unusual. Much if not all of that difference disappears as the primer is seated and the primer diameter is bumped up by seating pressure. Check with a once-fired case, preferably from a factory cartridge as it has not been interefered with by your present die adjustment. If the bolt will close freely on this case you only have to do minimal resizing to reload it. If you feel a bit of resistance when you close the bolt on it you can remove that by careful adjustment of your sizing die to remove that resistance. A lot of shooters do everything possible to minimize setting the shoulder back once the case is properly fire formed. Cartridges loaded for hunting obviously do not want or need to be at minimum tolerances for headspace as you want them to feed smoothly for sure. But, you do not want the shoulder set back excessively or things like you are seeing start to happen and case life will be sharply reduced as the case will stretch a bit more with each re-sizing and firing until it finally separates at the top of the web.
