Problem With The Hornady 9mm Seating Die

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aridan

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To set up the die without a crimp, I threaded the die in until it touched a sized piece of brass, then backed off about 1/2 turn. I found the hard way that this causes my mouth-expanded case to get stuck in the die, so the cases are being crimped after all - well, not crimped maybe but the attempt is made to straighten the case wall where the bullet is pushed in. This is causing problems for me: the case gets stuck inside the alignment sleeve, and on the downstroke the sleeve and the seater just get pulled out of the die past the lock ring!

I had to adjust the die using a flared case - otherwise, I just couldn't continue using it. This required backing off another 1.5 turn. I then discovered that the seater adjustment screw had to be almost completely screwed in to get me the OAL required. This concerns me a lot: I don't normally find myself at the end of adjustment range. Besides, the locking nut on the seating screw is no longer locking it, so I am forced to re-test OAL and re-tighten the seating screw about 1/2 turn after 20-30 rounds, because it keeps drifting up.

IMG_1184.jpg


This is definitely NOT normal. Am I doing something wrong, or is it the die??? Bullet diameter, maybe?

TIA.
 
What kinda bullets?
The die's body seems to be out by 2-3 turns and thus seating stem has to go further in to compensate for that.
 
CeeZer said:
What kinda bullets?
The die's body seems to be out by 2-3 turns and thus seating stem has to go further in to compensate for that.
Click to expand...
AIM 124gr, slightly over .356 in diameter, say .3565 to .3570...

Yes it does have to travel further - but if I keep it screwed down (based on a sized case) I am ripping the alignment sleeve out on each and every downstroke. :confused:
 
aridan said:
AIM 124gr, slightly over .356 in diameter, say .3565 to .3570...

Yes it does have to travel further - but if I keep it screwed down (based on a sized case) I am ripping the alignment sleeve out on each and every downstroke. :confused:[/

Does the Hornady die still have the floating alignment sleeve, which doubles as a crimper?

If so, it would seem that you may have locked the sleeve down to low in the die. Can you back that off?
Click to expand...
 
Could as well be bullet diameter. You shouldn't have much resistance when complete round leaves the die.
I load Frontier 115gr and 124gr and Berry's 124gr (all .355") with the same die and same press, no issues.
Call Hornady, and if the die turns out to be defective, they'll ship you new one completely free.
 
So I'm looking at the die in the picture. My guess is that the screw locks the seating stem in position. Can you screw the die down, and set the seating depth with the seating plug, THEN lock the seating stem in place without crimping?
 
aridan said:
AIM 124gr, slightly over .356 in diameter, say .3565 to .3570...

Yes it does have to travel further - but if I keep it screwed down (based on a sized case) I am ripping the alignment sleeve out on each and every downstroke. :confused:
Click to expand...

Just to confrm you setup the die correctly:

1) you back out die's body to prevent it from crimping and adjust seating stem to seat bullet to proper OAL;

2) back out seating stem. Adjust die's body (turning it in) to achieve proper crimp on properly seated bullet with desired OAL;

3) Put that ready round back in the press and lower the handle all the way, adjust seating stem again by turning it in till it touches the bullet.
Confirm OAL with next few rounds made and if need be, adjust seating stem.
 
Seating_Die_3.jpg

My guess is, the seating stem is supposed to be locked by the knurled nut just below it (the one with rubber washer). I found it impossible to lock the stem: no matter how tight that knurled nut is, the stem is still moving freely.

My procedure is just as Hornady describes for seating without a crimp, except I use a flared (not sized) case in Step 2:

1. Back out the die body AND the seating stem.
2. Insert a flared case (the instructions say sized case, but that's been causing my problems), lower the handle, and screw in the die body until touching the case mouth, than back out 1 turn. Tighten the body lock ring.
3. Insert a case with bullet which has the desired OAL (mine is set at 1.090). Lower the seating stem until it touches the bullet. Tighten the knurled nut below the stem.

CeeZer, I see your instructions look different. Are you adjusting the die body on a bulleted case? Hornady says use a sized case without a bullet. I'm getting confused...

Let's say I DID want to use the crimp feature of the seating die - which is exactly what happens if I adjust die body using a sized case. Why then is the case getting stuck in the alignment sleeve?

Thanks for your help, guys!
 
With 9mm cartridge, you HAVE to crimp it or you will either have feeding issues or loose bullets .. The case is tapered so the mouth has to be a little narrower than head of the case.

If you read Hornady manual that came with dies, you will have to notice there are 2 sections there: 1) seating WITHOUT a crimp; 2) seating WITH a crimp.

Yes, in the end you need to use bulleted case (complete round) but I'd strongly suggest you no make dummies first - no primer and no powder - just to make all the adjustments to seating and crimping die.

Please, re-read those two sections, and then my post #7 (above) will make sense. It's very short version of what is said in both sections in the manual.

I understand that your seating stem is so far in that you ran out of tread on it and this is why it's free-floating. I can send you a pix of my die setup for OAL 1.085" - that's very close to your 1.09". PM me with your email addy and I'll email you the pic for reference.

So far - 1) your die body is too high - you are not crimping;
2) seating stem is too low and you ran out of tread on it.
 
I crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die in the next station - that's why I'm setting up the seating die without a crimp - the page I posted is from the Hornady note that came with the die.

Following those Hornady instructions, I made a dummy for OAL 1.090: seated with Hornady die, crimped with LFC die, checked in the barrel of my Shadow - the whole 9 yards. That was 150 rounds or so before I started experiencing problems.

Once my ammo started ripping the adjusting sleeve out of the die body, I tried to re-adjust using the dummy round I made. After that, every single round (I tried 5) had the same problem. So, I made the decision to use a flared case instead of a sized one - and that's why my die is so far out & my seating stem is out of adjustment. I know this is wrong - what I don't know is how to avoid this...

Picture this: the die is set up as per instructions. I bring the ram up, the bullet is seated. I then bring the ram down slowly. I see the aligning sleeve emerge from the die body. At the moment when my round and the die should come apart, I feel slight tension: the round is stuck inside the sleeve. If I keep going, the sleeve & seating stem will be ripped out of the die. The lock ring that keeps the aligning sleeve and seating stem inside the die from falling out just isn't made for this kind of tension.

As far as I can tell, when instructions are followed to a tee, the case seizes inside the aligning sleeve. The only two reasons I can think of are:
1. Defective die. Somewhat unlikely, since it worked for the first 150-200 rounds.
2. Oversized bullet. The bullet diameter is 0.3565 to 0.3570. When the aligning sleeve tries to straighten the flaring out, it encounters this extra resistance - and the bulleted part of the case seizes inside the sleeve.

I need to know what to do & who to blame: Hornady, bullet manufacturer, my wife, etc. :mad:
 
I think I understand better now...

Looks like a combination of errors that I've made + slightly oversized bullet...

I had to add a touch more flaring to the expander die, to accommodate the extra 0.001", and probably went slightly overboard. When this extra flared case mouth went into the seating die that was adjusted NOT to crimp, the case simply got stuck.

Here is what I did: made the expander die to give me just barely enough flair to seat the bullet. I then adjusted the seating die as instructed, using a sized case, and then ADDED another 1/2 turn to let it start crimping ever so slightly. This took out the very edge of the flair that was making the case stuck in the sleeve on the downstroke. My Lee factory crimp required no adjustments, as far as I can tell.

My seating die is back where it should be in the adjustment range. However, I'm back to square one, trying to figure out what causes the huge OAL variance: it is now anywhere from 1.078 to 1.097, and is driving me nuts. I wonder if bullet shape may have anything to do with it. :confused:
 
aridan said:
My seating die is back where it should be in the adjustment range. However, I'm back to square one, trying to figure out what causes the huge OAL variance: it is now anywhere from 1.078 to 1.097, and is driving me nuts. I wonder if bullet shape may have anything to do with it. :confused:
Click to expand...

Just for poops and giggles, measure 20 bullets from nose to tip and see if there is a difference. Not a true test, as the seater nose may be making contact with the very tip, or a section of the ogive, but still iteresting to know.
 
The bullet length is anywhere from 0.583 to 0.590, is this normal? The seater is not flat, so it does touch the bullet somewhere on the side, but not necessarily on the ogive (that's the biggest dimension, right?).
 
aridan said:
The bullet length is anywhere from 0.583 to 0.590, is this normal? The seater is not flat, so it does touch the bullet somewhere on the side, but not necessarily on the ogive (that's the biggest dimension, right?).
Click to expand...

The ogive is the curved section of the bullet from the tip to the straight section.
 
OK, thanks - somewhere on the ogive then... I wonder if the bullet shape has a bit of variance to it, too. Perhaps this could account for some of the OAL variance - still, 1.078 to 1.097 seems like a lot. I end up checking almost every round against the barrel, I wish I didn't have to.

I also noticed, if I ran the same piece through seating & crimping a few times, the OAL stayed the same. So it shouldn't be an error on my part, right?

Thanks a lot - aridan.
 
Yes, bullet shape and inconsistency during bullet manufacturing will cause inconsistency in OAL. If the seating stem were pushing right at the tip of the bullet, then you'd have very consistent but still not very same OAL, very slight difference in case' rim thicknes would play a role - but that is all pure theory.

The best you can do is to make say 10-30 rounds (may even be live rounds), barrel-drop test all of them and see if you hit rifling and round gets stuck, put aside those rounds that got stuck and measure OAL on them. Then, seat bullets on those rounds deeper so they pass barrel test and then leave your seating die along.....

This is why I seat plated Frontier (Marstar #FMB-005) bullets at 1.085" (on average) - there is variation in OAL and the longest round that leaves my press is still a good round :)
 
I have a Redding precision seating die for 9mm. It seats only, no crimp, then I use the Lee FCD to crimp.

When I first set up the Redding die the OAL was all over the place and far from "precision". Soon discovered that cases had to be separated by headstamp. Different cases gave different OAL.

When set for 1.130 using a Winchester case the OAL is within 2 thou. Then switch over to Speer cases, reset the die and they are within 2 thou.

Maybe try separating your cases by headstamp and see if the OAL varies.
 
Guys, thanks for the tips! Just got back from the range: I fired 300 rounds, and had one stuck in the barrel real bad - it wouldn't budge without a mallet. Ended up pulling the brass out, with the bullet still stuck inside the barrel.

CeeZer, I'm gonna do the same, I'm tired of barrel-checking most of my rounds - and still have mishaps. If an occasional round goes below 1.085 I think I can live with it, it'll still be accurate enough for my casual plinking.

Glenzo, I didn't know about the headstamp. My brass is swept up from the range, and I pay no attention to anything other than throwing the bad ones out, much less think about sorting by headstamp. I might try the Hornady micrometer seating stem if I decide to go pro. ;)

Thanks again! - aridan.
 
Just a quick question: if I'm set for 1.085 OAL - with recommended OAL being 1.100 - and IF the actual OAL gets to, say, 1.075 because of the variance I'm seeing - won't this affect the pressure to a point of making it unsafe? My loads are on the weak side - 4gr of Titegroup with 124gr Aim plated - but a difference of 0.025 seems like a lot... TIA.
 
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