Question about the 10.6 Reichsrevolver cartridge

762mm

762mm

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Hi,

I have a Reichsrevolver M79 in a very nice shape... good bore, good rifling, no rust and very little pitting (almost none). When I bought it, I was told that these guns can fire .44 Russian or .44 Special ammo, which was also confirmed via searches on different forums out there.

However, lately I noticed the same gun posted in the EE and the mold is said to be .450 for it... A search on a cartridge comparison site also states that the 10.6 reichsrevolver bullet diameter is .450

Tables can be found here:

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm


So, since I was now confused, I slugged the bore & cylinder of mine with a piece of compressed aluminum foil (I don't have a lead slug at the moment) and found that the cylinder is .438 on mine.. whereas the bore is .434 or .435 as far as I can tell. :confused:

Can anyone tell me why that is? Are there two versions of the same cartridge, one which is .450 and the other closer to .430? The barrel on mine is marked 10.55...

Thanks in advance for any help. By the way, I fired mine already with some .430 Horandy "cowboy" .44 cast bullets (180 gr, with 4.5 gr of Unique behind it) and accuracy was very poor, even at close range. The powder also failed to burn properly, as there were some leftovers in the barrel after the shooting session. My initial thought was the the bullets didn't seal properly. I will try to cast some of my own .44's soon using the LEE mold I just bought, so I'll see how that goes.
 
These cartridges were a heeled bullet design and definitely larger than a standard 44 . I have seen a few posts saying use 44Russian while it can be fired it is usually too small and accuracy is poor the 44Russian cases work great with a heeled bullet . You can make a heeled bullet by sizing the base driving band of a 45 cal. bullet in a .430 sizing die this is what I used to do worked great or buy the proper mold .
 
Buy that Winchester 44 Sp Cowboy ammo in the brown box ;)

That gun shot a 2 inch group at 25 to 30 yds 3 inchs right above the bullseye with that Factory winchester Cowboy ammo its in a brown box with a guy rideing a horse on the box.

Its a Very accurate gun. Getting the right bullets and powder for any antique is a trial and error thing.
But that winchester ammo that gun (if its the same one i think it is) it loves that ammo.
 
Thanks for your input everyone... So I take it that the heel is .450 and the rest of he bullet is .430? Man... that's messed up just a bit, lol :confused:
I guess I will have to learn a few more things about making antique ammo.

dingus said:
Its a Very accurate gun. Getting the right bullets and powder for any antique is a trial and error thing.
But that winchester ammo that gun (if its the same one i think it is) it loves that ammo.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is the same gun. I really like it because it feels very solid throughout, but accuracy sucked the first time I tried it (it was suggested to me to try 5.0gr of Unique, not 4.5 - I still haven't had a chance to fire my already made 5.0's though, so can't tell if that tad of extra powder will do the trick).

I think it might be the Horandy cast .44 bullets (180gr, cowboy type). They seem somewhat less beefy, because they have no bands on the sides, just a little checkered (very shallow) area all around that doesn't even retain any lube. My new Lee mold has something called a "microband" around the bullet and gives it a beefier/thicker appearance and will surely retain lube better. Hopefully that will work much better. This is what the Horandy .44's look like, by the way:

th_hornpic11058.gif


As for Winchester cowboy ammo, it is very hard to come by around here... regular ammo is hard to come by, never mind that specialty cowboy stuff. My only real choice is to make some decent loads myself (I've got all the equipment for it anyway).

Also, I use shortened .44 magnum cases... I doubt that makes a significant difference, but I have no choice because even .44 spl brass is not available locally... so forget cowboy ammo.

:(


P.S. Dingus, I have no problems believing you when you say that this gun is a tack driver... it just isn't one with the ammo I've made for it (all 100 rounds, lol), so I'm trying to figure out what to do next. If anyone ever performed a dissection on one of them .44 spl Winchester Cowboy cartridges and can give the technical specs (as in bullet diameter/weight and powder type/weight), that would be a life saver. Thanks!

.
 
762mm said:
Thanks for your input everyone... So I take it that the heel is .450 and the rest of he bullet is .430? Man... that's messed up just a bit, lol :confused:
I guess I will have to learn a few more things about making antique ammo.



Yes, it is the same gun. I really like it because it feels very solid throughout, but accuracy sucked the first time I tried it (it was suggested to me to try 5.0gr of Unique, not 4.5 - I still haven't had a chance to fire my already made 5.0's though, so can't tell if that tad of extra powder will do the trick).

I think it might be the Horandy cast .44 bullets (180gr, cowboy type). They seem somewhat less beefy, because they have no bands on the sides, just a little checkered (very shallow) area all around that doesn't even retain any lube. My new Lee mold has something called a "microband" around the bullet and gives it a beefier/thicker appearance and will surely retain lube better. Hopefully that will work much better. This is what the Horandy .44's look like, by the way:

th_hornpic11058.gif


As for Winchester cowboy ammo, it is very hard to come by around here... regular ammo is hard to come by, never mind that specialty cowboy stuff. My only real choice is to make some decent loads myself (I've got all the equipment for it anyway).

Also, I use shortened .44 magnum cases... I doubt that makes a significant difference, but I have no choice because even .44 spl brass is not available locally... so forget cowboy ammo.

:(


P.S. Dingus, I have no problems believing you when you say that this gun is a tack driver... it just isn't one with the ammo I've made for it (all 100 rounds, lol), so I'm trying to figure out what to do next. If anyone ever performed a dissection on one of them .44 spl Winchester Cowboy cartridges and can give the technical specs (as in bullet diameter/weight and powder type/weight), that would be a life saver. Thanks!

.
Click to expand...

There just a 240 gr lead Flat Nose bullets doing about 730 FPS or so.
Try any bullet sized 430 thats like 230 to 240 Grs and 5 grs of unique get some 44 Sp brass from track of the wolf they ship to Canada.
Buy a couple hunderd tho as the shipping is like $26 on 100 cases same on 300 so get as many as you can aford in one go.
44 Mag brass Sucks shortened cause the case is slightly thicker when you shorten it than 44 Sp brass ends.
So get 230 to 240 Gr Lead Flat nosed bullets 44 sp cases from track the wolf and try 5 grs of unique.
lets see what that does.
You should get some 240 Gr SWC s to they shoot good in all my 44 Caliber guns!
You can use the 44 Mag cases for now but get some 44 Sp brass down the Road.
I almost didnt sell that gun to you cause i was impressed how good it shot the factory ammo right over dead center it was very accurate. :)

Wholesale sports is supose to carry that Winchester 44 Sp cowboy ammo eh just buy a few boxs from them you get the brass that way + you can enjoy shootin it.
 
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Wow you got a gun which shoots to POA with a cheap, easily available factory load and you are trying to reinvent the wheel! I understand the problems of local availability of components but for a 15 dollar hazmat fee your problems are solved.
I am mostly just jealous that I did'nt scoop that gun when I first saw the test targets.
 
Thanks for the input once again. I am not complaining about anything, but I just want to be able to produce a good round with all the reloading equipment I invested in. Factory cowboy ammo is probably very good, but I am sure that one can make ammo just as good or even better with proper components and a good recipe.

Anyway, the M79 is one hell of a good looking and impressive gun, even when it's not being shot, lol... kind of like a Colt Python of its' day, I guess. Those Germans sure knew how to make a nice six shooter - if only Hans wouldn't have forgotten an extraction rod, lol :D All in all, I don't regret buying that gun one bit, even if I still haven't hit the target at 15 feet (but it's surely my homemade ammo that's to blame).

Come spring, I'm definitely going to try some different bullets & loads in it and I'll also buy the proper brass (will post my results with pics once I'm done testing and find the best load). So far, the shortened .44 magnum is ok for loading, albeit a bit hard to crimp. The added safety of a thick-walled case is a bonus though, especially in an antique.
 
Maybe 4.5 g unique is not enough to get the bullet to bump up .004"? The cowboy action section of alliant's 2004 manual shows a 44 special in a 5.5" barrel:

205gr RNFP @ 1.445"oal
minimum load = 6.0gr unique @ 835 fps
max = 7.0gr @ 953fps

240g SWC 1.48" oal
min=5.1g unique@613fps
max=6.0@697fps
 
I think Fiscus nailed it. I ran it through Quickload - you aren't getting enough pressure to burn the powder efficiently. A higher percentage of powder will burn with an extra 1/2 or 1 full grain of powder more than you are loading now. I would think a 5.5 gr load of Unique should still be very mild - Quickload predicts a 7.2 gr of Unique as max for the 44russian using a 180 gr jacketed bullets. But be careful, the heavier walled .44 mag brass is gonna give you somewhat higher pressures than regular .44 spl or russian brass would.

The increased pressure might expand the rear of the bullet and make it bite the rifling a bit tighter as well, although this is dependant on how hard your bullets are.
 
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jethunter said:
I think Fiscus nailed it. I ran it through Quickload - you aren't getting enough pressure to burn the powder efficiently. A higher percentage of powder will burn with an extra 1/2 or 1 full grain of powder more than you are loading now. I would think a 5.5 gr load of Unique should still be very mild - Quickload predicts a 7.2 gr of Unique as max for the 44russian using a 180 gr jacketed bullets. But be careful, the heavier walled .44 mag brass is gonna give you somewhat higher pressures than regular .44 spl or russian brass would.

The increased pressure might expand the rear of the bullet and make it bite the rifling a bit tighter as well, although this is dependant on how hard your bullets are.
Click to expand...

Thanks for checking, much appreciated. My Lyman pistol reloading manual (new edition) recommends a minimum of 4.9 gr of Unique for my exact cartridge setup (minus the magnum brass I use). My next shooting session with this particular gun will be with 5.0 gr of Unique, so 0.1 gr more than minimum recommended loads by Lyman.

Since it is an antique, I don't want to stress the old girl too much... but I don't want to load corrosive BP in it either. I guess I'll just have to find the sweet spot that works well. Thanks for confirming that powder quantity might be the actual culprit, I had the same doubts too (but no data to verify it).

:)
 
762mm said:
... I don't want to stress the old girl too much... :)
Click to expand...

I hear you there buddy. When it comes to 130 year old guns, careful is best.

You might need to play with the load a bit to get it to shoot to your sights. But that's good - gives you a reason to go shooting. :)
 
762mm said:
Since it is an antique, I don't want to stress the old girl too much... but I don't want to load corrosive BP in it either........

:)
Click to expand...

If BP was corrosive, we wouldn't HAVE antiques to play with today. The residue left by Unique is about as hygroscopic as BP residue, there is simply less of it. Still, enough that it pitted my Webley after a rather short period in the safe. :( Just look at how many shotgun barrels go rusty after shooting that stuff. Clean your gun after shooting, and it won't rust with either propellant.
 
It could make a big difference as to how hard your cast bullets are. Try to get some that have a BHN of 13 or less. A lot of commercial cast bullets are really hard and may not bump up. The soft ones should with the unique loads being discussed.
 
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