Question on Brass Quality in Reloading

I

Ianstew

New member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hi Folks,

I am fairly new to reloading but have had some good success dialing in loads for a number of rifles over the last couple of years. I had an interesting experience at the range last weeeknd shooting hand loads I developed for my 7 Rem Mag. I had prepped and loaded 10 cases: 5 were Federal Premium and 5 were Remington Core Lokt. I had developed this load previously using just Federal Premium brass. Bullet (162 gn ELD-X), powder (7828) and primers (CCI Magnum) were all the same. Both had been fired twice before.
I shot the Federal brass loads first, and as expected, had sub MOA results. I let the barrel cool for about half an hour while I shot other rifles. Then I shot the Remington brass loads and found that they shot slightly worse than 1.5 MOA. Both loads were at max according to Hornady manual but no signs of pressure on either. Is this something others have experienced? I wouldn’t have thought that brass would have made that much difference in these identical loads.
 
I can not explain your exact experience, but I have found over the years that internal capacity of various brands will be different. Has been my objective, for years, to make one round the same as the other - so, same bullet, same seating depth, same powder load, same primer, same brand of brass - preferably even from same manufacture lot run - that goes for bullet, powder, primer and brass.

You say yours have been fired twice - so likely full formed to your chamber and then re-sized however you do that - so exteriors likely similar - however, one maker might end up with thinner or thicker walls; thinner or thicker case head, etc. - so outside really similar on case, but inside can be different.

Shooting 5 shots is probably better than firing 2 shots - but is still really borderline whether any firm conclusions can be drawn from that - I think "statistics" likely needs or wants more data points. But, you "think" there is a difference, so that counts for something. For comparison, I think I read that USA Army would fire 4 times 10 round groups - to decide if a batch of ammo met their specs or not. A correspondent tells me he shoots five times 10 shot groups to determine which lot of ammo that he will use in an upcoming competition.

Re-reading your post - perhaps you have proved to yourself that changing brand of brass does make a difference, especially for the rifle that you used. "Thinking" here - you might find it informative to weigh the five cases of Federal brand cases, and then weigh the 5 cases of R-P brand - perhaps they are different? I had read it was a thing to prep the brass, get it all ready to load - then to sort by weight - to get "sets" of brass that are probably similar. Some will "poo-poo" the weight thing, and suggest that comparison should be done with water into the cases, or with table salt, or with some type of gunpowder - but all do appear to expect there to be differences among cases - not all "precisely" the same to each other. Up to you, how fussy you want, or need, to be about that.
 
Last edited:
Brass quality is huge. You'll see people do charge weight ladders in .1gr increments but they're using brass that has a +/- 1gr H20 capacity case to case.

For ammunition to be consistent you need high case fill % and 100% powder burn.

Difference in case neck size can also damage a bullet vs not damage it on seating.

That being said, 1.5MOA just might be in the natural accuracy for that rifle.

You can estimate your guns accuracy potential by using Bryan litz top gun theory

Muzzle Energy in ftlb / weight in lb / 200 = expected MOA.
 
Shooters prep brass for a reason. It makes a difference.

Uniformity of the primer pocket
Uniformity of the flash hole - deburred
Case neck thickness
Case neck tension - for multiple times fired cases

Do you anneal cases? If not and you are looking for accuracy then you should.

Yes, brass has an enormous influence on accuracy.
 
Definitely not enough rounds to know if its significant.
That being said different brands of brass have different internal volumes, resulting in different pressures using the same powder charge.
Even going from virgin brass loads to fired brass (with minimal shoulder bump) usually needs a charge adjustment to get back to the same velocity.
 
Brass type is HUGE, especially if you're going anywhere near max loads.
Check the brass type in the loading manual for the load you are preparing and include that in your notes. Remington brass is fairly thick so the internal dimensions can really affect a max load. Try weighing different brands of brass.
In my experience a max load from the manual with Winchester brass will likely be over pressure in your Remington brass.
Also signs of over pressure (flattened primers, smeared headstamps) don't always show up right away.
Good luck.
 
Thanks fellas. I don’t (yet) anneal my brass. I’m going to try again with 10 of each, weigh the cases and borrow my buddy’s garmin chronograph so I can see if there is any velocity difference while still testing for accuracy.
 
No I get that part. I just figured that if they were coming out at noticeably different speeds between the different brass types that this could be a clue as to what’s happening…if anything.
 
Ianstew said:
Thanks fellas. I don’t (yet) anneal my brass. I’m going to try again with 10 of each, weigh the cases and borrow my buddy’s garmin chronograph so I can see if there is any velocity difference while still testing for accuracy.
Click to expand...
Good plan.
Can you tell any difference in resistance when seating the bullets on the Rem brass vs the Fed?
 
Different cases have different wall thickness. Grains of powder when equal inside different case capacities = difference in pressure. Just my guess. No chrono, no reference for diff. If your on the wet coast and want a cheap chrono I have two that I'm willing to let go of. Just PM if interested. Not donating but don't care about the money if you understand. I find that slower powders are a little more consistent, but that may just be me. Using a crimp die can help make neck tension uniform with different cases or use a neck tension mandrel if your not into crimping or using for hunting. If your using a die that crimps when seating, I would suggest avoiding the crimp and use a Lee crimp die as a separate process to identify if that what's going on. Cheers
 
Last edited:
You don't work to maximum load with one case, and just switch cases with that load, because if the internal volume of the cases varies, the pressure could be significantly different. And that difference in pressure, could very likely effect accuracy. As to the quality of cases, I find Federal to be among the worst, with Remington significantly better for case life.
 
One 5 shot group is useless, basically tells you nothing. Serious load development will take a heck of a lot more than one group.
 
Ianstew said:
Hi Folks,

I am fairly new to reloading but have had some good success dialing in loads for a number of rifles over the last couple of years. I had an interesting experience at the range last weeeknd shooting hand loads I developed for my 7 Rem Mag. I had prepped and loaded 10 cases: 5 were Federal Premium and 5 were Remington Core Lokt. I had developed this load previously using just Federal Premium brass. Bullet (162 gn ELD-X), powder (7828) and primers (CCI Magnum) were all the same. Both had been fired twice before.
I shot the Federal brass loads first, and as expected, had sub MOA results. I let the barrel cool for about half an hour while I shot other rifles. Then I shot the Remington brass loads and found that they shot slightly worse than 1.5 MOA. Both loads were at max according to Hornady manual but no signs of pressure on either. Is this something others have experienced? I wouldn’t have thought that brass would have made that much difference in these identical loads.
Click to expand...
I just noticed what you wrote - or I would have replied sooner - the Hornady 9th Edition loading manual here shows they used Hornady/Frontier brass and Winchester WLRM primers to develop their data. Your post did not indicate where you got your data from - is foolish to rely on a source and then change most ever component and still rely on that source. They show loads using IMR 7828 powder for about every bullet weight from 120 grains to 175 grains.
 
I use Win/Fed brass with Fed mag primers and 160gr Accu-Bond -61gr of IMR 4350 gives me .439" 3 shot groups at 100 yards and does 40" of moose. Same basic components using a Hornady 140gr and N-165 66gr cuts .443" and is death on deer.
 
If OP is new to reloading and testing - might want to consider "round robin" shooting - set up multiple targets - first shot is first load at first target. Second shot is second load at second target. Third shot is third load at third target. Repeat with second round from each loading in "round robin" sequence - that will mostly eliminate lighting change, wind change, bore condition change, etc. from comparisons. One could extend that to one cold bore shot every morning - same target - one shot - clean and maintain bore as per normal - that will replicate your one "cold bore" shot that is normally taken at game - not usual to shoot a "group" at an animal - most times. Count EVERY hole - there are no gimme's or "flyers" - bear down on each shot as if "all the marbles" are on that shot.

I have done so, working up various loads - typically two rounds per loading from Start Load to mid level - then three rounds from mid level to about 0.5 grain past book Max - idea is to find where is Maximum in your outfit, with your components, without "locking up" and breaking off bolt handle with first shot. With any luck, you come back from shooting session with some rounds to pull down - you found what you think is "Max pressure", in your outfit - then, separately, below that "Max", is up to you to find best accuracy in subsequent loadings and firings. Is not uncommon for my "pressure series" to amount to 20 rounds fired - also gives you some indication of accuracy potential, scope alignment, besides pressure levels. Just one time, if you get to pay to have repairs done after bolt handle broken off and the thing is still "locked up" after the first shot - pretty much proves to you the value of "sneaking up" to Max level.

I am probably very "old school" and am not a target shooter competitor. If I can end up with my factory made 338 Win Mag putting 3 or 5 rounds into a 1" circle at 100 yards, I am very okay with that. Some people want a 1/4 or a 1/10th of that group size - they might use different process to get there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom