Questions about double barrel shotguns...

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Max-4

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Hello, I am getting the urge to buy myself a 20g side by side or over under shotgun in the near future. I have little to no experience with them and have never owned either one. I have however shot semi autos and pumps for waterfowl over the years. I am familiar with shotgun fit and I do know that first and foremost a proper fit trumps everything else. We can skip that portion of the lesson because I will be trying to do my due diligence and shoulder what I can first.

I am looking at buying this gun to shoot small game, doves, ducks, pheasants and farm shoots as well as clay pigeons to hone skills. I have a desire to own a nice sxs just for the tradition and nostalgia aspect of things but I would go over under if somebody can make a strong case for doing so.

My questions are more related to what I can buy for my budget. I am not looking for a sporting clays model, I am every bit looking for a nice field gun first and I'll shoot clays on the side with it. I have a budget of about $1500 for this shotgun and I wanted to know if I will get better "bang for my buck" with a sxs or over under for this price?

I am going to keep an eye on the used market and see if I can spot something at a good deal. I do like the idea of buying brand new so I can get a 3" chamber and possibly screw in choke tubes. If I have to settle for fixed chokes what combo would work well for squirrel, doves, chuckers, grouse and clays?

Am I going to be looking at strictly the Turkish made shotguns at a $1500 budget or will I find some English, Italian or Spanish guns at that price?

I'd like to keep my questions related to quality of sxs vs o/u at that price range. What to look for on the used market and what can I expect to see in a new firearm vs used. Thanks in advance! Max-4
 
I know many do not have any faith in Turkish built guns but I do. I think a Huglu side by side would work well for you. Most have screw in chokes so that makes the choking issue moot. Barrel length is an option. The trend is to longer barrels but 28" will be very useful. If settling for fixed chokes MODIFIED and IMP CYL are the tradition and work well. I like straight grips and double triggers some do not. Instant barrel selection is one of the reasons I like two triggers. Sounds like you are not going to be shooting 200 rounds a weekend so durability of the Huglu is no issue. Stay away from aluminum alloy frames choose all steel. 3" chamber can make a 20 bore more versatile but with today's offering of quality 2 3/4" cartridges in the 20 bore it is not a deal breaker. I feel a 3" chamber in a gun to meet your parameters is not necessary. Lot's of opinions will accrue here remember to go with what you want and like that will give you the most satisfaction.

Darryl
 
Start shopping for a good used Parker or Fox. Don't buy something new. Get a well-built piece of history that fits you and the rest will fall into place nicely. I wouldn't buy anything new when there are so many amazing guns out there on the market. You might even start looking at potential imports from Britain. With their recent across-the-board non-toxic mandate there will be a lot of very good guns moving which will drive prices down, to our benefit. If you go through someone like Cabela's or Orvis in the States, you'll pay a bit more to get these guns, but especially from Orvis, you'll know that it has been gone through and is a quality piece.

There is a nice Elsie Field Grade 20ga in the Cabela's in Richfield WI right now and a stupid nice Cogswell at Crosnoe's (See it on GunsInternational). You'll have to pay more for either of these, but they're worth way more than what you'll get out of a $1500 Turkish double.
 
Generally speaking you will get more “bang for your buck” with a new O/U as opposed to a new SxS.

But when buying new with either configuration, you are at the lower end of the scale. I don’t mean to slag Turkish guns but there will be very little else to choose from.

However, $1500 opens up a world of better quality guns of both styles if you are prepared to buy used.

I have a number of SxS that I paid less than $2000, most around $1000 to $1500, and new guns can’t touch them for quality. At least not until you start taking $6-7,000 and up on the SxS.

I don’t know where you are but come to the Double Gun Classic on June 4 and shoulder some guns. You can find more info in the dedicated thread.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2261763-6th-Annual-Double-Gun-Classic-Take-Two!
 
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Max-4, if you are going to the doublegun classic and would like to shoot my BSS 20 for a round of skeet, just send me a PM. Prices have been climbing on these for the past couple years but not too long ago that was something you could find sub-$1500. Mine is not for sale but as background it had fixed mod/full chokes and I had the full side threaded for thin wall choke tubes. I like it very much. For doves you're going to need to shoot nontox. That does not necessarily mean steel-capable barrels, of course.
 
Canvasback knows doubles and his advice is sound. Your $1500 budget will buy you a good quality new CZ, Churchill or Huglu, all decent quality good looking guns with a guarantee, they are capable of giving many years of satisfactory service for your intended purposes. They will all have choke tubes, the side by sides are available with either double or single triggers, straight or pistol grips. Over/unders will have choke tubes , straight grips are rare and double triggers are sometimes available as special factory order only in this price range. These mostly come with a nice classy hard case too.
Used doubles are a different kettle of fish, your budget will take you into a better quality gun, sometimes much better. Here you can get into fine guns by well known and respected makers like Beretta, Browning, Ithaca/SKB, AYA and other lesser known makers of good modern guns. For your side by side consider Beretta, Bernardelli, Browning BSS, Sauer, Merkel. Guns from the 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s will have fixed chokes, often full & mod in your preferred 28” barrels. These can be professionally opened to a very useful IC and Mod or my all round favourite IC and IM, usually about $75 a hole. Shorter barrels were fashionable in this period , especially in smaller bores and 25”-26” barrels are usually IC and Mod. Any of these guns will provide several lifetimes of solid service and if looked after will hold or appreciate their value. Spanish guns from the better makers like AYA, V. Sarasqueta and Union Armera are under valued, can be a super bargain. And don’t overlook nice doubles by dozens of unknown Italian makers, they made some fine guns too. Used over/unders from Beretta, Browning, Ithaca/SKB are plentiful and legendary. You simply can’t go far wrong with one of these but you won’t likely find double triggers or straight grip. Again, fixed choke, and it can be opened if desired. And again, many no name Italian makers of fine guns.
I would strongly advise a newcomer to doubles to stay with a known quality brand name on a used gun, and also to avoid older prewar guns. Lots of older vintage i guns available, some real beauties, but many pitfalls here for those without specialized knowledge and experience, not a wise choice for an everyday reliable gun. And as a collector and dedicated user of English side by sides it pains me to say one of these might not be the best choice for you, delightful as they are to handle and use. Why? Well while they are beautifully made, most were largely hand made, no interchangeable parts, no used parts, to fix one an experienced specialized
( expensive) gunsmith must make and fit a part by hand. A good postwar English gun is far outside your budget, a prewar English gun could be affordable for you and will usually be well cared for but also heavily used, maybe altered or damaged and likely chambered in 2 1/2” which makes sourcing ammunition inconvenient. When you find your gun please post back to this thread and tell us about it.
 
I went through what you are going about a year ago. I was looking for a lightweight SxS 20ga for about 1k. After hearing the old timers speak on the subject, I quickly noticed I didn't know much about SxS to chance my hard earn money on a used older gun. So I went with a Churchill SxS (newer Turkish gun). It does the job nicely. Not a 20,000 shot per year gun, but I've had a LOT of fun with it.

Just need to get myself an old time tweet vest and matching wool socks and I'll be a true gentlemen lol.

If you are shopping online, it will be very hard to try them out unfortunately.

Do keep us in the loop!

David
 
huntingfish said:
I went through what you are going about a year ago. I was looking for a lightweight SxS 20ga for about 1k. After hearing the old timers speak on the subject, I quickly noticed I didn't know much about SxS to chance my hard earn money on a used older gun. So I went with a Churchill SxS (newer Turkish gun). It does the job nicely. Not a 20,000 shot per year gun, but I've had a LOT of fun with it.

Just need to get myself an old time tweet vest and matching wool socks and I'll be a true gentlemen lol.

If you are shopping online, it will be very hard to try them out unfortunately.

Do keep us in the loop!

David
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OMG….are we old timers now?Laugh2
 
There was a nugget of advice in Ashcroft's post. Avoid a prewar gun. I asked myself why. Parts are unavailable, so you'd need a true gunsmith to make and install any parts that failed. Probably just as true with any modern gun too, but at least with a newly built "gonne" you're more likely to have any repairs done by a factory authorized craftsman.

I get a monthly email from Gun Tests, and last year or so they tested modern Over Under shotguns listed for over a grand US. One article considered the Franchi Alcione Field 12 Gauge No. 40405 and the Winchester Supreme 12 Gauge No. 513001350. I'm not a shotgunner, but the two guns were sympathetically reviewed and both were recommended. I cannot find the article anymore, but I recall an equally polite discussion of Turkish shotguns that weren't entry or budget level guns. The bottom line I remember is there were some very nice shotguns from Turkey worth testing.
 
Ashcroft and Canvasback have answered the OP comprehensively. It's worth reading their posts twice.

Re: parts - there are no parts for the vast majority of used double guns on the market.
There's poor to zero access to parts for modern Turkish double guns in Canada, and "factory trained service" - where would that be?
Factory authorized service is available for Beretta and Browning, but more commonly broken parts for old guns are often unavailable.
Fortunately, better quality double shotguns can give very long service at a recreational level of use, without breaking any parts. We deal with problems if they arise.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the initial thoughts on these shotguns. I actually just went on a farmed upland bird hunt for chuckers this week. I got to carry and try out a few shotguns including SxS and O/U. It pretty much helped me make up my mind that I want an O/U vs a SxS. I have L to XL hands and the SxS felt very weird to me with its splinter fore-end and pointing felt un-natural with barrels side by side.

On the other hand I got to handle an old Winchester 101 20 guage and a 20 Guage Beretta silver pigeon and 16 guage Merkel O/U and the both felt great!

With my budget being $1500 give or take I am starting to look at the Huglu Ventus line or even the Cabela's exclusive Winchester 101 Field made in Belgium.

I am finding it frustrating to find a 20g with 28" barrels or a light 12g with 28" barrels used. I looked at the Huglu 103 line in 12g but they all seem to be 7.5 pounds with 28" barrels and that's too heavy for me.

What are your thoughts on the Huglu line vs Winchester 101 re-make? Anything else I should consider new at this price point? Thanks
 
The 101s are solid guns but the huglu 103 line is proving itself. I have a 103fe 20ga. It shoulders similar to a beretta ou to me. Turkish guns very in weight with the density of the wood. Some are lighter some are heavier
 
brybenn said:
Churchill 206 is another candidate in your price range
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Took the words out of my mouth. The 206 is quite a nice gun. I picked up a 206 Orcap and I actually like it better than my Browning 725 feather, save for the faux CCH.

You previous post indicated that the Huglu shoulders like a Beretta. I will suggest that the Churchill shoulders like a Browning. So if both of our descriptions are accurate, then thats good info for the OP as generally people prefer how either Beretta or Browning fit but usually not both. I know thats the case for me. Sold all but one of my Beretta’s as they dont fit me at all. But Brownings generally fit me well out of the box
 
I can shoot both equally well. I prefer the shallower receiver of the beretta style. Browning generally has nicer wood

If willing to be patient older brownings berettas and 101s come up used for around your budget. You may have to settle for fixed chokes.
 
Max-4 said:
Hey guys, thanks for the initial thoughts on these shotguns. I actually just went on a farmed upland bird hunt for chuckers this week. I got to carry and try out a few shotguns including SxS and O/U. It pretty much helped me make up my mind that I want an O/U vs a SxS. I have L to XL hands and the SxS felt very weird to me with its splinter fore-end and pointing felt un-natural with barrels side by side.

On the other hand I got to handle an old Winchester 101 20 guage and a 20 Guage Beretta silver pigeon and 16 guage Merkel O/U and the both felt great!

With my budget being $1500 give or take I am starting to look at the Huglu Ventus line or even the Cabela's exclusive Winchester 101 Field made in Belgium.

I am finding it frustrating to find a 20g with 28" barrels or a light 12g with 28" barrels used. I looked at the Huglu 103 line in 12g but they all seem to be 7.5 pounds with 28" barrels and that's too heavy for me.

What are your thoughts on the Huglu line vs Winchester 101 re-make? Anything else I should consider new at this price point? Thanks
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I watched a few videos from TGS (The Gun Shop? English chap that talks about guns) on youtube and seeing him hold a SxS helped me get a decent grip on mine. I'll give you that...it's not something I would of done naturally.

I cannot speak of Huglu as I have never handled one, but my 20ga Churchill 520 is at about 5.6lbs (remember, I wanted a light gun to carry around all day). The 12ga version is at 6.0lbs according to their specs. Maybe Beretta1963 could confirm as I believe he has one.

David
 
talk to the folks at your local gun store - i have a spanish sxs probably from the late 60's or early 70's it's cool and believe that it has fixed chokes (modified/full) it was recently given to me so I personally have not shot it. as for over/unders they may be better suited for rabbits (field game) that's what I use them for anyways
 
huntingfish said:
I watched a few videos from TGS (The Gun Shop? English chap that talks about guns) on youtube and seeing him hold a SxS helped me get a decent grip on mine. I'll give you that...it's not something I would of done naturally.

I cannot speak of Huglu as I have never handled one, but my 20ga Churchill 520 is at about 5.6lbs (remember, I wanted a light gun to carry around all day). The 12ga version is at 6.0lbs according to their specs. Maybe Beretta1963 could confirm as I believe he has one.

David
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Takes a bit to get used to his voice but i think he is one of the best reviewers on youtube. He has alot of content
 
For the money, a CZ SxS is hard to beat....they come with 5 chokes and are actually well built.....mine has shot hundreds of rounds with other than the fake sideplate screws coming loose ( a little Loctite fixed that) ive had no issues.....I have pre war Parkers and parts ARE available, if youre lucky like I was, Parker O frames come up sometimes here that need a little work ( or a lot, depends what you want done and how far you want to go) we have Smiths' here in Canada that do amazing work on Parkers or a Fox.....I acquired a decent 16ga Parker O frame right here on the Classifieds.....a few months with Chris Dawe and she is better than factory new....the O frame is a Gem to carry.
 
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