Questions about post WWII Enfields in service

[JTF#]

I have a couple questions about post WWII No.4 enfields.

when our guys went to korea what type of enfield would they have been issued? same stock as WW2 or were we giving them newer made longbranch guns? if I wanted to find out if a gun was issued to our troops in korea were would I go how would I know?

second issue.
in the first war Israeli did the Israelis use enfields left over from the English? or were any captured? if so did they get any markings or proofs added to them like the mauser stocks they received?

 

[purple]

The standard issue Cdn Army rifle was the No4Mk I or Mk I*, so troops would have been issued whatever serviceable rifle was available in stock at the time. We mostly had LB made rifles, but all other makes were also seen. Until the late 1970s we still had a substantial quantity of No4s in war reserves. There is no way of determining whether or not a rifle was used in Korea based on markings.

The Israelis were using everything and anything available when they first established the IDF including just about any type of WW2 weaponry that was available. When the Brits pulled out of Palestine it was in the face of a very active Israeli insurgency led by notables such as Menachim Begin. The Brits were the occupying and ruling power in Palestine from post WW1 to 1948. During this time they were confronted by insurgencies mounted by both Palestinian Arabs and the Jews. During the interwar years the Brits did organize and equip various Arab and Jewish police forces along British lines. There would also have been many opportunities to aquire weapons by theft or other means during this time. During WW2 Palestine was a large British base area with many depot and training facilities located in places like Haifa and Jerusalem. When the Brits got out of Palestine in 1948 they did not turn over weapons to the Jews who were running an active insurgency against them at the time. The Israelis would have acquired many British weapons during this time by theft or capture. The Brits also put a lot of effort into equipping and training the Arab Legion in Jordan during the same time, to the extent of providing military officers to train and lead the Legion on contract.

The world was awash in surplus weaponry, especially small arms of German origin, after WW2. A lot of this stuff was purchased by Israel on the international arms market. The IDF was originally organized and trained along British lines as it was seasoned with many Jews who had been in British service during WW2. They were even wearing surplus Cdn battledress for the first few years. Once things got normalized after the 1948 war the IDF set up an organized logistics system where all equipment was given military property markings and was subject to standardized maintenance and storage procedures.

 

[JTF#]

thank you for the info.!

 

[purple]

An interesting legacy of the British Mandate in Palestine is Government House, which was the residence of the Governor in Jerusalem. It is an impressive stone bldg constructed in 1930 on one of the hills of Jerusalem known as "the hill of evil counsel". When the Brits left in 1948 it became the HQ of UNTSO, which is the umbrella UN Peacekeeping organization in the Middle East which continues to operate there today. It was the scene of fighting between the Israelis and the Jordanians during the 1967 war. I used to go there quite often for meetings and other UN business and always found it an interesting place for its historical aspects. I thought it ironic that the Brits and the UN had both unwittingly chosen "the hill of evil counsel" as their location to operate from.

 

[sunray]

Go here. Isn't the only site, but it's good. Add the W's. .koreanwaronline.com/arms/contents.htm
There's no way of finding out where any weapon went or who used it. Those records were not kept. Any such records were unit records anyway and they just were not kept.

 

[altaberg]

With respect to the Israeli Defence Forces, they used initial whatever they could get their hands on and that included of course Enfields of almost any kind.

After independence in 1948 Hashomer, Irgun and Haganah and whatever irregulars transformed into the IDF.
At that point their official rifle became the K98k.

That mostly had to do with two reasons. There was a lot of German weaponry available and countries like Czechoslovakia sold them by the plane load.
Also, a fair number of jewish fighters had gotten military training in Poland, Germany and other countries which used Mausers.
There was in fact an official weapons embargo on Palestine. Any weapons the Israelis got were purchased on the black market.

(That actually included some interesting items such as Czech-converted Me109s as the first fighter planes of the new Israeli Air Force, barely functional but stopping an Egyptian army nevertheless.)

The IDF still bought new Mausers from FN around 1950.

In around 1957 the IDF switched to FALs and 7.62NATO and the K98ks were mostly converted to 7.62NATO and put in reserve.
There are plenty of 7.62NATO K98ks with Israeli markings around ranging from German-manufactured, Czech or Serb marked to the FNs with the Israeli crest.

I am not aware that any Enfields were kept by the IDF and I have never seen one with Israeli markings.
I do not believe such a beast exists and if I were confronted with one I would be suspicious.

 

[LeeEnfieldNo.4_mk1]

Just a note on the Long Branch Enfields, I believe Wartime Production of No.4's ended in 1945 but resumed again in 1949 and ceased in 1950. I believe their are also parts that were made up to 1955, and most likely ceased when Canada Adopted the C1.

 

[stencollector]

Some parts were still being made very recently by Diemaco in support of the Canadian Rangers.

 

[purple]

For a fascinating insight into the circumstances of the IDF in the 1948 period I recommend a read of "Dual Allegiance" by Ben Dunkelman. Dunkleman was a Canadian Jew from Toronto whose family business was Tip Top Tailors. He went through the campaign in NW Europe as an officer in the Queens Own Rifles and was decorated with the DSO. He felt compelled to offer his military expertise to assist Israel during the period when the British mandate was ending and the declaration of the State of Israel which included fighting against the Brits and later the British led Arab Legion and the Syrians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

He describes some of the improvised mortars and armored cars/trucks that the Israelis used in the absence of first line equipment. Some of these vehicles can still be seen as rusting hulks along the highway from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem where they are preserved as monuments to the struggle to keep the road open to Jerusalem. He also talks about the Russians being a major supplier of captured German weapons through Czech intermediaries (Mausers and jeep mounted MG34s are always prominent in photos of this period) as well as the IDF using BRENs, STENs and Lee-Enfields.