Questions on No.4 spike bayonets

englishman_ca

englishman_ca

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I'm just showing off again.

I scored a Mk.I spike bayonet on FleaBay, me happy :dancingbanana: , I've been looking for one for quite some time. They don't seem to be that common.

Questions; Why was the design changed? Was it too expensive to make, or was it changed by political pressure to be a kinder, nicer way of stabbing the enemy? I have to admit, that little spike is a nasty looking thing, especialy on the end of a rifle, very surgical and business like, designed to do but one thing (They don't like it up em!).

So from what I can gather, the cruciform bayonet was the origial design issued with the first No.4s. I have heard all kinds of stories about the X blade making a sucking wound that won't stop bleeding. It was banned under some international convention. I heard that they are like blood grooves.
I think it is just to make the blade lighter. But the Mk.II is less time consuming to make with its solid spike, so I believe it was discontinued for reasons of economics.

Mk.II* is a design that was produced to allow the bayonet to be made in two pieces, ie blade and socket seperate and then joined. This allowed different machines and processes to be used, processes that were available in many industrial factories. A major boost to production during war time.

The Mk.III is a further concession to manufacturing processes. It is made up in several pieces, some stamped and then made into a weld assembly. The Mk.III was the last spike bayo for the N0.4.

Plonk attached (if it works) Mk.I, Mk.II, mk.II* and Mk.III
spikebayonets_r1.jpg
 
They were changed to speed up production. It's faster and easier to make a plain round steel bar than it is to make the cruciform. The troopies hated them all. You can't cut wood, open cans, etc as easily with a nail.
 
Well if your not a rifleman your a pikeman correct?

I guess being fancy on a bayonet is pointless unless it is for a parades...(okay pointless may be a bad bayonet joke..)

Not too may ALLIED Parades in 39-43...
 
Just curious as to what it cost you on fleabay? They used to be $10 - $20 when I picked one up years ago but I have seen them sell in the $100's these days. I hope you scored a real deal as they are becomming scarce. So scarce that people are making money making repros of them. Beware not to pay in the $100's for a repro.
 
"...great tent pegs..." Long ago when they were selling by the pound, yes. Not anymore though.
"...$10 to $20..." Geezuz! Seems to me I paid $5 for my cruciform. Not recently, of course.
Anybody who pays $100 for a spike bayonet is nuts in the head. They run $10 or so at gun shows. The more scarce types are more, but not $100. $2 to $15US on the anti-firearm ebay.
 
Got a spike bayonet with scabbard & frog for $15 last year at a local gun show.

About 20 years ago I picked up this blade bayonet.
Fits a No.4 just like a spike, but the muzzle piece swings down out of the way to make for a regular knife.
bayonet.jpg
 
Fleabay purchase

I found the cruciform bayo on FleaBay listed with some other junk, er, I mean, treasures. It had been listed for less than an hour under the title of 'WWII relics'. I did the 'Buy it now' thing for under $20.

I agree, there are tons of No.4 spike bayos still around. The attitude that they are cheap and plentyfull is like an echo from years past. They will dry up eventualy. I have gathered up the ones that I want while I still have choice. I have a few nice ones stashed away in grease. I would pay said $5 for cruciform bayos all day long, how many do you have for me?

Don't forget that somebody new to collecting will want a spike for their No.4 rifle. There are a number of bayo manufacturers and models, they are collectable in their own right so don't look down your nose at them, they are a piece of milsurp history. Any Lee Enfield collector who has a No.4 rifle should have at least one in their collection. For instance, if you have a Long Branch rifle, be prepared to pay a premium for that Long Branch spike bayonet, IF you can find one that is. A minty C broad arrow and LB marked example can go for $30-40. Not cheap for a tent peg anymore.

Cruciform spikes are not that common and can run you $100 for a decent one. Seems like a tall tale? OK, just for fun, try and find one, I double dog dare you! There are very few in circulation these days, hence my happy dance at completing that portion of my collection.

Now my search continues for a Hooky 1907 to complete my display of SMLE bayos. And ya, I'm sure that they used to sell for only $5 at one time too! They are up around a G note now!!!!
 
I have not seen a cruciform spike bayonet for under $100.00 for a few years and now one has to be careful it is not a fake. If you got a cruciform for $20.00 today then you got a heck of a deal man!
 
Fer sure the cruciform was NOT banned under ANY convention, but when you are equipping an army in wartime, milling the spike to get that shape is simply a waste of time and effort.
Just as in the P07 there is no such thing as a "blood groove", a term dreamed up by some "penny dreadful" hack writer
While the spike may not be as pretty or useful as a blade bayonet, it's sure as hell going to do some major damage to anyone you stick it in.;)
 
Agreed. Blood Groove was never a correct term. It's a "blade fuller" and it's purpose is to make extracting the bayonet from the corpse of your enemy easier. Flesh tends to stick less to a fullered blade. Has nothing to do with blood that I'm aware of.

The idea of a pre-1945 army being concerned about wound healing is absurd. The huge blade bayonets and even the tiny Enfield spike was designed to KILL the enemy, not give him a ticket back to his girlfriend and caring mommy ;)
 
Good use of spike bayonet.

I did see a good use for the spike bayonet. When my hunting buddy with his No.4 and I stopped for lunch, he whipped the spike bayo out of the scabbard on his belt, fixed bayonet, spun the rifle upside down and then stuck the thing vertical into a log.

Rifle was secure, up out of the dirt, out of the way so no tripping or standing on, and the muzzle was pointing in a safe direction. Not a bad idea. I had to lay my rifle down on the ground propped on the log, cos who woulda brought a bayo deer hunting?
 
Claven2 said:
it's purpose is to make extracting the bayonet from the corpse of your enemy easier. Flesh tends to stick less to a fullered blade. Has nothing to do with blood that I'm aware of.
Click to expand...

I’m no authority on these sorts of things, but from what I’ve read fullers are more useful for lightening the blade while maintaining strength. If you look at older weapons, IE swords. The largest fullers are on slashing type weapons (Viking Period being a prime example), as their blades are usually broad and would require more surface but with a wieght under 3lbs. These would not benefit from a fuller if its purpose was to help you pull the blade out as they weren’t stabbing weapons.
While when you go into later periods where the stab was the favoured method of killing those blades are devoid of fullers( or they were close to the hilt). Why? Because the blades were thin, with thick cores to stiffen them for thrusting(such as Bastard swords with diamond cross sections). If pulling them out was such a problem why wouldn’t these types of blades have fullers?

That’s my $0.02
 
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Bear in mind, a sword is not a bayonet. And a bastard sword needed to be strung enough to thrust through armor.

A bayonet just has to thrust through webbing at most ;)
 
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