Queston about a winchester 1897

350mag1

350mag1

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Hi everyone, I'm new here although I'm guilty of lurking for sometime! My queston is: I just purchased several guns and in the bunch was a 1897. The gentlemen thought it was a takedown model but I have no clue if it is or even how the darn thing comes apart! The serial # is 325626. On the barrel it has-Pat.Nov.25.90 Dec.6.92 July.21.96 Feb.22.98 June.14.98 Oct.16.1900
Also, what kind of value would they bring on average on the Canadian market? Thanks for all the help!
Doug
 
Congratulations! Your 1897 was made in 1907. Here is a picture of a solid frame model:

page613.jpg


and here is the takedown model:

page5347.jpg


See the difference? (front of the receiver)

Takedown / assembly instructions can be found here: http://www.rucascowboys.com/win97_takedown.htm

Sharptail
 
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Your shotgun was manufactured in 1905 according to Western Gun Parts Catolog. I also have one that was manufactured that year. These days about the only people looking for a shotgun of that vintage are Cowboy Action Shooters. Out west, there is a fairly large supply to be had, so depending on condition you can pay anwhere from $200.00 to $400.00 dollars on a private sale. My 1905 M97 cost me $100.00 and 800 12 gauge reloads and my 1913 M97 cost me $350.00. Most I see at the gunshows are asking $500.00 to $550.00 but they just generally sit on the tables and don't go anywhere.

As for disassembly, the best book available is a reprint by Desert Publication, Cornville, Az 86325 called " Shotguns, U.S. Shotguns, All Types, TM 9-285"
 
Thanks for the help guys! Mine is the take down model according to the pictures. They are a very unique looking rig! I purchased these guns for resale but I see it's going to be hard to let go of some of them go. Thanks again and have a Merry Christmas! Doug
 
These guns have a feel and balance you can't appreciate with pictures. They almost feel like a nicely balanced English double. A very slim shotgun. But when all that metal starts popping out of the action, it's a real eye-opener!
 
They are a real piece of art! Just shouldering the 1897 makes me feel like a cowboy!!:p . The other gun in the bunch that interest me was a Colt Lightning small frame .22. Really neat! Actually there was one other as well, at first sight, I thought I just seen the ugliest rifle ever! After awhile it grew on me and with some research, found that they had quite a history. It is a Martini-Henry in .303. She's an odd ball looking thing but then again, people say that about me!!:p LOL!!
 
Garand's got the market value in Canada about right. I'd say the market for 1897's is much wider than just cowboy action shooters, though. There's a vibrant community of Winchester lovers (of which I am definitely one) and the 1897 is one of the classics. There's also a fraternity of hunters who swear by pump action shotguns (although many of them are more interested in 3" chambers or longer and shoot steel).

Without question, the 1897 was the most popular shotgun of any description around the turn of the century, so they still exist in decent numbers. The fact that they're all but indestructible has preserved their numbers as well. The CAS shooters often refinish them and sometimes shorten the barrel and open up the choke. So, if yours is original and in good condition, you may want to consider keeping it that way.

It was available in 12 and 16 ga. models and, as you now know, solid and takedown versions. The 12 ga. was also available as a "trench gun", which was a military version complete with shorter barrel, heat shield, and bayonet mount w/bayonet. When cycling shells through, if you hold down the trigger and cycle the action, an 1897 will fire as fast as you can work the action. Because of this capability and its reliability, the 1897 trench gun was so feared by the German troops during WW1 that they applied to have it banned as an "inhumane" weapon.

Besides being THE shotgun of the old west, it was the standard for law enforcement agencies for decades. One classic example was when it was used by Eliot Ness and the Untouchables during prohibition.

I've used mine for trap shooting, waterfowl, and upland birds. I wouldn't shoot steel through it, not that it can't take it, but that's no way to treat a friend. Besides, tungsten matrix is a better substitute for lead, anyways.

Knowing all this (and there's a lot more, just google and enjoy), if you don't have a special place for it your cabinet, I've always got room for one more in mine. Let me know if you want to sell.

SS
 
Will do straightshooter. That is some great info. I have heard of the trench version which I see that Norinco has their copy of. I will be selling it and the rest of the guns as soon as my beloved registration :rolleyes: tickets get here. I'm not a collector, mind you, when I start handling these jewels, it makes me want to start! I do have a gentlemen in my home town that maybe interested in the 1897, he is a cowboy shooter but he has yet to make me an offer. I'll try to get some pics for you soon. My e-mail address is sundmot@hotmail.co. if you want to contact me direct. Thanks for the info!
 
350mag1 said:
Hi everyone, I'm new here although I'm guilty of lurking for sometime! My queston is: I just purchased several guns and in the bunch was a 1897. The gentlemen thought it was a takedown model but I have no clue if it is or even how the darn thing comes apart! The serial # is 325626. On the barrel it has-Pat.Nov.25.90 Dec.6.92 July.21.96 Feb.22.98 June.14.98 Oct.16.1900
Also, what kind of value would they bring on average on the Canadian market? Thanks for all the help!
Doug
Click to expand...

My advice is do not take it down. Leave that to a person experienced with the proper knowledge on how to put it together.... or get a person experienced to show you how to do it without marking the action up.

I see so many take down Model 97's and Model 12's that have been marked up by klutszes who do not know what to watch out for on assembling, without marking the blueing up. Hell most of them have deep gouges in the metal.
 
Garand et al: Dating an old gun is always fun! The info from the homestead site would indicate a 1906 date. However, they say that their info comes from the oldguns site, which in turn indicates 1907. The Western Gun Parts catalogue indicates 1905. A three year span is not bad, considering that about a hundred years has passed, and over a million guns were made. I believe that Winchester made some changes to the way they stamped their trademark in 1907 - a picture of the barrel would at least confirm pre or post 1907. Then again, a gun might have been assembled from parts stamped a year or so previously. I wouldn't sweat it too much - either way the gun is old. I wonder how many 870's, Mossbergs etc. will still be functioning 100 years from now.

Sharptail
 
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Sharptail said:
I wonder how many 870's, Mossbergs etc. will still be functioning 100 years from now.

Sharptail
Click to expand...

How many, what percentage of those produced, and in what condition?

There's a surprisingly high number of 1897's that have survived for 100 years or more. Mechanically, most of them are as good as the day they were sold (Maybe even better. For all I know, it may take several thousand rounds to break one of these beauties in.) Those that got retired along the way must have been left to rust or got turned into parts guns because the wood got damaged.

When you consider that most are the takedown model, you'd expect them to get loose to the point where they're wall hangers. Instead, thanks to the adjusting sleeve system (wonder if Winchester or Browning took out a patent on that...), they should last a few more centuries.:D

SS
 
Again all, thanks for the info! After all this talk about the 1897, I couldn't resist the opportunity to shoot it!:D The action work flawlessly and very fast! I did the "hold the trigger" thing and started pump'in! I could not believe how fast this gun could rattle off the shells!!! My wife is worried that I won't sell it now!LOL! LOT'S OF FUN!!!!
 
Meana, Thanks excellent site. It appears more research is required, which in itself helps make life more interesting.

The comment about steel shot being used in the M97 is worth paying attention to. The reason that I got my 1905(?) so cheaply was that somebody had sawn off the barrel and had fired steel shot through it. Dlask was the gunsmith that originally inspected the shotgun and indicated to me that the barrel should be considered unsafe. I managed to find another barrel by asking around on gunnutz here, it was bulged at the end but AC Gunsmithing in Saskatoon cut it back to 18 5/8" and installed an internal choke.

The M97 is a great shotgun, as I have mentioned I have 3, 2 commercial and 1 (1945)Trench Gun. Try visiting a Cowboy Action Match, after all you have at least 1 of the firearms that you require to shoot a match!
 
350,

I'd be worried, too, if I was her. Once you start shooting an 1897, it's awful hard to let it slip through your fingers. Hunting with one is a real treat, too.

Think about how old that gun is and how well it performed in your hands this week. Better than most new models, I'll wager. For me, the open hammer is especially nice for hunting. I keep it in the half cocked position (safety) with my thumb on the hammer and my trigger finger over the trigger guard. When I hear those first few low frequency wop, wop, wop sounds, I pull back on the hammer, let my finger slip inside the trigger guard, and turn towards the sound - all in one motion. Its completely reflex.

I like hunting ruffies with SXS's, too. Coincidentally, those of the same vintage as the 1897 tend to be of much higher quality than the newer (read < 50 years old) ones. I suppose that shouldn't surprise anyone, since in those days they were all made by hand and parts were carved from solid blocks of steel, not cast or stamped. Actually, the old gunsmith arts are still practiced by a select few. You wouldn't believe how many zeros are on the left of the decimal place in the price for their work!! When you talk about what is known as "best" quality, even vintage guns start at around 20 grand and can go to well in excess of 100 grand. We mere mortals can only dream of holding let alone owning such a fine shotgun

Naturally, I can't find the sites I would like to show you, but here's some interesting examples that I found easily with a quick google:

http://www.drake.net/html/shotguns.html

http://www.hollandandholland.com/~newyork/usedguns/index.htm

http://www.pugsguns.com/displayCategory.do?id=1

But don't let those puppies intimidate you. The "best" quality grades and the field grades of many of these makes differ only in the finishing touches - the quality of the walnut, the engraving, and the attention to detail like custom fitting to the owner's dimensions and the finish.

I suppose now that I've babbled my face off, the price on your 1897 will have gone up to the point where I'd be better off looking elsewhere. No big deal - there's still enough available in Canada that the market price is more than reasonable. Not so in the States, I'm afraid.

I don't remember, did you get any side by each's in that score of yours?

SS
 
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