Quick 45-70 OAL question

Throttle_monkey1

Throttle_monkey1

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Hey guys,

I am new to reloading for the 45-70 and have loaded up some gas-checked 405 grain flat nose hard cast bullets from bullet barn. I'm following hodgdon's manual online which tells me starting is 46 grains and max is 50.5 grains of H4198 with an OAL of 2.54" for a 400 grain bullet

I've loaded mine with 47 grains of H4198, but couldn't get the OaL to 2.54" and still be able to crimp on the cannelure. I ended getting around 2.515" but did end up getting a solid crimp on the cannelure.

Am I gonna blow myself up?

Thanks for any and all advice!
 
Why couldn't you get to the desired oal?
Also, it really depends on what rifle you are using. That is, a Marlin will only feed a particular oal, and won't if it is too long. On the other hand, a custom single shot with a long throat could be seated longer.
So, a few more details please if you want some help?
 
It's a marlin guide gun. If I seated them so the OAL was 2.54" I wouldn't have been able to crimp them on the cannelure, as I would have crimped below it. I guess I was curious of pressure increases by having an OAL of 2.515" since the bullet is sitting deeper, unless of course my OAL is shorter because it's a flat nose bullet.
 
That is too hot! You are going to lead your bore. 44.0 start to 47.2 MAX is hodgdon's load for a 2.65" OAL with a 405GC

You cannot use 400 jacketed data for a cast bullet. They lead bullet seals better and pressure goes way up. I would start at 40.0 and work up.

You don't need to crimp cast bullets on the cannelure if you use a lee factory crimp die. Every 1895 I have ever shot had better accuracy with a longer OAL. I've gone up to 2.71 in in modified 1895 and the accuracy keeps getting better.

Also, you will notice that .457 is small for your guide gun. You will see leading if you shoot a lot of these. Gas Checks help. If you can, look for (or make) a .460 sizing die and bump the bullets up. The lyman sizing dies work well. Open up a .457 to .460 with sandpaper on a straight shaft. Put the paper on the long 3/8" shaft and in the die and roll it around on your knee. 220 to start then, when you get to .459, polish it out to .460 with some 400 grit.
 
"...wouldn't have been able to crimp them on the cannelure..." Forget the cannelure.
"...for a 400 grain bullet..." A 400 grain jacketed bullet. Like thebigslide says, you're using the wrong data.
There's H4198 405 grain cast data on Hodgdon's site under 'Trapdoor' loads. And on Reloader's Nest.
"...would start at 40.0..." Think 30.
 
From my experience there is alot of wrong info here, cast lead bullets will produce LESS pressure, then a j-word bullet of the same weight. The bore would only suffer from leading if the bullet is too small, too hard,and/or poorly lubed. or a combination of these things, unfortunately most bought cast bullets have these very problems. Hard cast bullets will not "bump up", even with alot of pressure on them, the unsupported front (narrower) portion of the bullet will distort first, starting with the tip, even with a properly fitted top punch. Cast bullets can actually be driven faster then j-word bullets in cals. like the 45/70 because of lower pressure, however the bullets should be .459" or larger, somewhat hard(least important), and have substantial provision for lube and be lubed with a good lube which is usually somewhat soft.
In addition, the best place to crimp a cast bullet is in the crimp groove provided, distorting the bullet by crimping elsewhere does not aid in accuracy, and is not as positive as a solid crimp in the right place.
 
thebigslide said:
Also, you will notice that .457 is small for your guide gun. You will see leading if you shoot a lot of these. Gas Checks help.
Click to expand...

Those Bullet Barn bullets he's got are should measure .459" and have gas checks. They shoot very well in both of my Marlin 1895's. I usually run them in the 1200 to 1400 fps range for shooting at gongs and paper, but they will work without leading at 1700+ fps.

For cast bullets I don't use the same powder as the original poster, so I'd make no reccomendations regarding how hot that is, but I would compare the data with a second manual like Lyman's.

Chris.
 
Yeah the bullets are .459" bullet barn 405 grain gas checked. Three lube grooves. I thought gas-checking allowed hard cast bullets to be pushed past 1650fps without leading? Otherwise what is the purpose of gas checking?

I'm sure if 47 grains of h4198 is safe for a 400 grain jacketed bullet it should be safe for a gas checked hard cast, no?
 
Gas checking should allow hardcast bullets to be pushed past 2000fps in the 45/70, but everything must be right, bullet size must be right and bullet lube must be good(not too hard).
 
Throttle_monkey1 said:
It's a marlin guide gun. If I seated them so the OAL was 2.54" I wouldn't have been able to crimp them on the cannelure, as I would have crimped below it. I guess I was curious of pressure increases by having an OAL of 2.515" since the bullet is sitting deeper, unless of course my OAL is shorter because it's a flat nose bullet.
Click to expand...

Crimp them in the crimping groove and see if that overall length will feed in the Marlin. I suspect they will. Then start your load development at the bottom end of the scale, and if you have a chronograph, even better. Then see how they perform (and how much your shoulder can take).
You have approached the problem from the wrong end for a lever action rifle, as you want the bullet to be solidly held by the crimp (to avoid being pushed further into the case while in the tubular magazine) and to ensure that it will feed properly in your rifle.
 
No one has mentioned the brass...are you using once fired Hornady brass? Hornady uses a shorter brass case for their FTX bullets, which would cause the shorter OAL when seating the bullet to the case.

There is nothing wrong with the brass - just something to watch out for.
 
ben hunchak said:
Gas checking should allow hardcast bullets to be pushed past 2000fps in the 45/70, but everything must be right, bullet size must be right and bullet lube must be good(not too hard).
Click to expand...

if i remember correct the bullet barn alloy is around 25BHN which is supper hard. more than you would actually need for a 45-70 plinking load or even average hunting load.
if using gas checks, properly fitted bullet and good lube ( not sure how the bullet barn lube preforms) you could potentially drive those bullets at the top end velocities of a 458 win magnum.
im not saying you should do that in your gun but lead bullets can be driven faster than J-word bullets just like Ben mentioned, you just need to know the right combination of factors for your gun and needs.

for example i shoot cast 223 rem just as fast as i shoot my J-word bullets (around 2800fps)out of it.
just a matter of using the correct combination
 
Thanks for all the pointers guys. I am using new Winchester brass mic'd at 2.097". I figured the ideal crimp is on the cannelure, and that's what I went with, but the overall length is 2.515" and hodgdon gives a max load of 50.5 grains of h4198 with an oal of 2.54". Marlin says the max oal of 2.55"

I'm not too worried about feeding a the moment, but moreso concerned about increased pressure of having the bullet seated 0.025" deeper in the case.

I will try these and check for any signs of pressure. Hopefully my shoulder can handle it.
 
Throttle_monkey1 said:
Thanks for all the pointers guys. I am using new Winchester brass mic'd at 2.097". I figured the ideal crimp is on the cannelure, and that's what I went with, but the overall length is 2.515" and hodgdon gives a max load of 50.5 grains of h4198 with an oal of 2.54". Marlin says the max oal of 2.55"

I'm not too worried about feeding a the moment, but moreso concerned about increased pressure of having the bullet seated 0.025" deeper in the case.

I will try these and check for any signs of pressure. Hopefully my shoulder can handle it.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, if the cases won't feed, they won't eject either unless you get yourself a bear-proof ejector from wild west guns.

That means you should load singly when testing out any new load that won't eject properly.

Also, a lot of people are saying that you can drive cast bullets faster than jacketted - which is true. You would use less powder though. Ben, I'm not sure where you get the idea that a cast bullet produces lower pressures than jacketed for the same load. I'd like to see a citation there please. It is the opposite of my experience. Normally I wouldn't get into this on a forum, but it is a safety issue when we start talking about max loads and swapping bullet types and stuff like that.
 
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