Ram wobble on Lee Challenger and need to upgrade press?

7055steved

7055steved

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This is a 2 parter:

I've noticed that throughout the stroke on my Lee Challenger press, the ram is able to move around a total of as much as 1/16" in every direction. Is this normal? Would this count as the ability to self-center and float or add some undesirable runout to my rounds? I've had the press since my teens and not knowing any better haven't been the kindest to it with primer compound on the ram and no grease.

Part 2: is it worth it to upgrade my press? I load mostly 308 for hunting but am always pursuing more accuracy because it's fun to do so. I'd be considering the Lee Classic Cast or the Redding Big Boss. Both cast O type presses with similar design. The price difference is $100 so big whoop. Any feedback on those or similar would be appreciated.

I've just finished reading Zediker's book, Handloading for Competition and wish I did so years ago. It's like the mentor I never had! Now that I've read it, my process and some tools are getting a revamp...hence this post.
 
7055steved said:
This is a 2 parter:

I've noticed that throughout the stroke on my Lee Challenger press, the ram is able to move around a total of as much as 1/16" in every direction. Is this normal? Would this count as the ability to self-center and float or add some undesirable runout to my rounds? I've had the press since my teens and not knowing any better haven't been the kindest to it with primer compound on the ram and no grease.

Part 2: is it worth it to upgrade my press? I load mostly 308 for hunting but am always pursuing more accuracy because it's fun to do so. I'd be considering the Lee Classic Cast or the Redding Big Boss. Both cast O type presses with similar design. The price difference is $100 so big whoop. Any feedback on those or similar would be appreciated.

I've just finished reading Zediker's book, Handloading for Competition and wish I did so years ago. It's like the mentor I never had! Now that I've read it, my process and some tools are getting a revamp...hence this post.
Click to expand...

Lee reloading equipment is about the bottom of the barrel quality wise and the price reflects it.
Ram wobble (run out) will most definately effect your ammo quality. How can a ram that never centers in the same place twice produce concentric cartriges?
The Redding press is a far better one but like all presses of this design, in time you will again develop runout in the rams travel as the ram and the press base wear.
My first press was an RCBS Jr. It lasted about 1.2 million rounds before it too was worn to the point of the ram having enough run out to be a problem.
There are presses on the market that are almost prone to this and the better ones can have the worn out bushings that the ram and guide rods run on easily replaced. The downside is the coat of the press is considerably more. I look at reloading presses as lifetime investments. I shoot alot, as in 20 to 30 thousand rounds a year so to have a press I can rebuild easily with commonly available parts is important. I just wish the Accumaxx press was available 40 years ago when I bought my first press. It would have saved me having to purchse several other presses over that timespan.
 
1/16" run out is more than should be there but there is always some. A little bit of lube on the ram can help that if you start before it's worn. The only way to know what is happening to your ammo is to check the concentricity on your loaded ammo.
 
yomomma said:
If it moving 1/16" in every direction you are telling us that there is 1/8" movement from side to side. Thats quite a bit of movement
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Sorry, to be clear I meant 1/16" total as in a 32nd in each direction, roughly. Either way it looks like too much movement in my mind!

Well sounds like I could use a new press. I thought about checking some loaded rounds on the concentricity gauge just to see how they fair, after finding some dead ringer cases to test with to isolate the effect of the press. That being said, I don't need much of a nudge to get a better press. Then again, the Accu-maxx as sweet as it is, is a bit much for me to spend on a press at $1075. I'd happily get a Forster Co-ax if they were in stock somewhere though! Haha.

I got to thinking that even though I would like the Co-ax, it certainly isn't the only single stage in the world and others must be loading very accurate ammo with other presses. I'm hopeful that I could satisfy my handloading quality desires with the Redding. Any other suggestions in the $500 or less range that are working for you or those you know?
 
I've seen rcbs presses going on the EE for about $80 plus shipping. There were two in december. Can't beat them. I've been using one for many many years and bought two used ones in the last couple years for my kids when they go out on their own.
 
in order to center your case in the die, the ram needs to have some wiggle room
otherwise you'll see shiny spots on the case and crappy bullet concentricity
 
legi0n said:
in order to center your case in the die, the ram needs to have some wiggle room
otherwise you'll see shiny spots on the case and crappy bullet concentricity
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The mandrel should follow the axis of the press center to coincide with the axis of the die as closely as possible without ANY NOTICEABLE SLOP.

If there is any wiggle room at all, it should be in the attached case head holder. This will allow the cartridge case mouth to center on the expander ball and run true to the axis of the die and if it has to, allow the base of the case to center itself accordingly, without any marring.

I have gone through a couple of dozen presses to find the four I have on my bench. All of them are as close to perfectly aligned as I'm likely to see.

Three of them are RCBS Rockchucker and one is a Hornady Turret Press that I use for pistol cases. I haven't found a LEE press I've been satisfied with, other than a Lee Hand Press. Mind you I quit looking at Lee presses over 30 years ago.

I do like Lee dies though. Well made, concentric and last a long time when cases are properly cleaned and lubed. They throw very concentric ammo that I can depend on for good consistency.

I have an older Lyman press made of steel as well that I use as a mobile press. I haven't used it for several years because I haven't been going to my cousin's property in the Waterton AB area. We used to load up 750 rounds per day of 222 and 223 back in the day to bring his gopher problem down to manageable levels. That was the best practice I had shooting wind and mirage conditions which changed with light and wind direction.

OP, my advice to you is to get a GOOD QUALITY STEEL PRESS.

Aluminum presses are OK but they wear out much faster. A good steel press will last most shooters a couple of lifetimes.

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Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback here. I'm gonna get a new press and stick with cast iron construction for whatever I decide on. I'll take better care of it than my first one as far as lubrication is concerned. I'll stick to decapping on my old press with a universal die for this job. I'll keep the abrasive primer compound off my new press this way.

I'll buy new so that I can exchange if needed. I now have the tools (dial indicator) to measure ram play and I'll do just that. If I see a small enough amount of play to keep it (whatever amount that is lol), I'll write it down and keep an eye on wear over its life for fun. Obviously some play is needed or the ram wouldn't slide, but safe to say it will be an improvement over my current worn out press! Haha. I figure that there is probably more variation from one press to another than one make to another when it comes to the big manufacturers' offerings, so I'll check the one I end out with since ultimately, that's the only one that matters to me.

Steve
 
I have a lee, same issue, i kind of outgrew it and went with a redding big boss. Really nice and sturdy, very little slop. However the lee still sits on the bench with a universal decapping die to knock the primers out of nasty brass and keep all that crud out of my nicer press.
 
Interesting post i ran across


"any idea how loose a ram can be in a press before it is considered scrap?"

When it won't push a case into the die without your fingers guiding it, it's time to replace. Otherwise, forget it. A round case WILL enter a round die hole precisely unless it's prevented from doing so. Thus, a bit of slack - and 20 thou is only a bit - is actually an asset to precision loading. A firmly fitted ram and die hole that is ever so slightly missaligned can easily bend long cases during sizing.#

Notice the BR guys use non-threaded dies and arbor presses. That means the case alignment is TOTALLY controlled by entering free from any exterior forces. A slightly loose ram goes a long way towards duplicating that.#

Notice that the most highly praised press for "accuracy" is the Forster Co-Ax. It has a totally free floating die holder system, no threads for a hard mounting at all. And no precision gunsmith chambers a barrel with a hard mounted reamer, they use free-floating reamer holders that allow the reamer to enter and follow the barrel's bore freely. And that works really good with pressess too!

Your press is just getting to be properly "broken -in". Keep it clean of primer grit and oiled, it has a long life ahead. But, it you just have the hots for a new single stage press get the best currently available, the Lee Classic Cast. And I say that as a Rock Chucker II owner who wishes he had the bigger, stronger and more user friendly CC instead!
 
Yomamma, (funny handle btw!), Thanks for finding that post. Whether I need it or not, I'm gonna get the Lee Classic Cast as that's what I'm leaning towards. I've got lots of those bushings already and they kinda float by tightening against an O ring which probably can't hurt anything. The play in my current press is a bit much and I checked it again and there is more play parallel with the handle movement if that makes sense, likely caused by me letting a nifty little pile of primer crud sand away between the press and ram (oops!).

In Zediker's book he recommends replacing the shell holder retaining spring with an O ring to allow more effective floating. It's not the first time I've read about this so I'll employ that as well. Anything that's helps even a bit is (maybe) better than nothing! Haha.
 
yomomma said:
Interesting post i ran across


"any idea how loose a ram can be in a press before it is considered scrap?"

When it won't push a case into the die without your fingers guiding it, it's time to replace. Otherwise, forget it. A round case WILL enter a round die hole precisely unless it's prevented from doing so. Thus, a bit of slack - and 20 thou is only a bit - is actually an asset to precision loading. A firmly fitted ram and die hole that is ever so slightly missaligned can easily bend long cases during sizing.#

Notice the BR guys use non-threaded dies and arbor presses. That means the case alignment is TOTALLY controlled by entering free from any exterior forces. A slightly loose ram goes a long way towards duplicating that.#

Notice that the most highly praised press for "accuracy" is the Forster Co-Ax. It has a totally free floating die holder system, no threads for a hard mounting at all. And no precision gunsmith chambers a barrel with a hard mounted reamer, they use free-floating reamer holders that allow the reamer to enter and follow the barrel's bore freely. And that works really good with pressess too!

Your press is just getting to be properly "broken -in". Keep it clean of primer grit and oiled, it has a long life ahead. But, it you just have the hots for a new single stage press get the best currently available, the Lee Classic Cast. And I say that as a Rock Chucker II owner who wishes he had the bigger, stronger and more user friendly CC instead!
Click to expand...


Nope, it doesn't go a long way to replicating what happens with the and arbor press and loose dies.

For on thing, the base of the arbor press is absolutely square to the base of the die and the arbor face.

A worn out mandrel runs at an angle to the die held in the frame. This makes for crooked ammo.

In the rifle I use for long range shooting, which have a Palma Match chamber, the necks have to be turned to fit snugly into the chamber. I stiil use my arbor press to load the cartridges for this rifle and there is less than a thou of run out. The rifle is chambered in 308Win and holds into sub half minute groups consistently if I do my part, right out past 600 yards, with loads it likes.

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If you really want a Coax, call Forster and ask them who they last shipped a bunch to, that's how I got mine, and I got it at a good price. Freight was 80.00 from Minn., but, it is what it is on that sublect.
 
I believe the Co-Ax is the Cadd of the single stage presses. After the Co-Ax, I believe the Lee Classic Cast is as good or better than the rest of the single stage presses. It is strong enough to resize the 50 BMG, let alone the smaller ones. Lots of hand space, great spent primer catcher system, good price, etc. Great press.
 
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