I have a question for you all you wizards of all things that go bang. I own a Norinco 1911 .45acp and have the desire to "ramp" my pistol for better chambering of self rolled ammo. Does anyone out there have a clear way of explaining the procedure and of course pics are always good. Thanks to anyone who can help.
"ramping" my Norc 1911
- Thread starter icecold
- Start date
You need a milling or have acces to one. You will also need a jig to hold the barrel. I suggest that you obtain the book '' The Colt .45 Automatic '', a shop manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen.( Brownells)
It can be done other ways, but with a BIG risk of needing a new barrel before the end of the operation.
There is more to it, than can be explained here.
:wink:
It can be done other ways, but with a BIG risk of needing a new barrel before the end of the operation.
There is more to it, than can be explained here.
:wink:
You don't need a milling machine. You need a fine round file. A rotary tool will do it too, but a file is better for your first chamfering job. Just continue arc of the feed ramp up the sides of the rear of the chamber about half way. Then polish it smooth. You're literally tapering the lower aft end of the chamber to widen the feed ramp a wee bit. It's easier to do than describe. Just be gentle and don't rush.
If you're not taper crimping your ammo, you should be. Taper crimping alone will aid feeding a whole bunch.
If you're not taper crimping your ammo, you should be. Taper crimping alone will aid feeding a whole bunch.
Taper crimping I am doing, I have compared the crimp of my ammo with many other hand loaders, and found that it actually is a little heavier (deeper) than all the others I see. Mind you at first I didn't have a crimp so to speak and at that time my feeding was horrible. Now that I crimp over much more, the problem has lessened substancially, but is still present.
Sunray, is right : it can be done by hand tools if you are willing to take the chance to have to buy a new barrel. There is more to it than the procedure stated by sunray.
There is specs and dimensions to respect and angle not to touch at all.
This mod is to enhance feeding of lead SWC and by the same way other desing such as FP bullet.
If you shoot only 230 FMJ, it might not be necessary to do it.
You should not relying to the taper crimp for feeding. Actually the proper crimp on .45 ACP is only to remove the bellying of the case mouth. The taper crimp should be no more than .001 to .002 max. The .45 ACP headspace on the case mouth. If you taper crimp too much, the round is retained by the extractor not by the case seated properly in it's chamber. Too much taper crimp damage the bullet, round is holding on the extractor not the chamber and all this result in lost of accuracy. My match load have a .469 case mouth taper crimp.
All modern commercial 1911 type are ramped and chamfered. The Norinco's are copy of original military 1911 specification made to use 230 gr. ball.
There is specs and dimensions to respect and angle not to touch at all.
This mod is to enhance feeding of lead SWC and by the same way other desing such as FP bullet.
If you shoot only 230 FMJ, it might not be necessary to do it.
You should not relying to the taper crimp for feeding. Actually the proper crimp on .45 ACP is only to remove the bellying of the case mouth. The taper crimp should be no more than .001 to .002 max. The .45 ACP headspace on the case mouth. If you taper crimp too much, the round is retained by the extractor not by the case seated properly in it's chamber. Too much taper crimp damage the bullet, round is holding on the extractor not the chamber and all this result in lost of accuracy. My match load have a .469 case mouth taper crimp.
All modern commercial 1911 type are ramped and chamfered. The Norinco's are copy of original military 1911 specification made to use 230 gr. ball.
You need to be aware that the Norinco barrels are hard chromed and in most cases are perfectly good as is. The current production ones are NOT ramped for military hardball only, as they were ten years ago, but have the same circular feedramp we find on Wilson, Clark, Bar-sto, etc. barrels. In a very few instances something needs to be done to the barrel (or link) to cure a feeding problem, but 99.9% of the time, the problem is elsewhere and someone cuts through the hard chrome layer for no good reason, and makes the barrel unsafe for reloaded, older cases 
In order of frequency, feeding problems are: poor ammo, closely followed by poor magazines, and way down the list too much extractor tension (they're more liable to be too loose), and at the bottom some old models with the military ramp that could use work.
I like Kuhnhausen's .45 book and recommend anyone contemplating any 1911 work read it from cover to cover. BUT, it is almost 20 years out of date and a lot has happened since it was written 8)
I crimp so as to bury about half the case mouth into a lead bullet, and back off a little for jacketed, just so a pulled bullet shows a line (not a deep crease). The best group I ever shot with a .45 - 10 shots in 1 5/8" at 50 meters - was many years ago with 5 grains of 231, a 180 grain lead SWC, and what some would call a pretty heavy crimp.
I know people feel that a heavy crimp lets a round slip too far forward, but try an experiment: Take your barrel out and see how much crimp it takes for the round to go in noticeably farther than usual. Hmmm - you have to almost cut a lead bullet in two (or seriously damage a jacket) before the thing goes in too far.
Crimp as much as you need for the rounds to feed smoothly, but make sure you are using good, proven mags - not what came with your Norinco :lol:
Good luck with it
Gunnar
www.armco-guns.com
In order of frequency, feeding problems are: poor ammo, closely followed by poor magazines, and way down the list too much extractor tension (they're more liable to be too loose), and at the bottom some old models with the military ramp that could use work.
I like Kuhnhausen's .45 book and recommend anyone contemplating any 1911 work read it from cover to cover. BUT, it is almost 20 years out of date and a lot has happened since it was written 8)
I crimp so as to bury about half the case mouth into a lead bullet, and back off a little for jacketed, just so a pulled bullet shows a line (not a deep crease). The best group I ever shot with a .45 - 10 shots in 1 5/8" at 50 meters - was many years ago with 5 grains of 231, a 180 grain lead SWC, and what some would call a pretty heavy crimp.
I know people feel that a heavy crimp lets a round slip too far forward, but try an experiment: Take your barrel out and see how much crimp it takes for the round to go in noticeably farther than usual. Hmmm - you have to almost cut a lead bullet in two (or seriously damage a jacket) before the thing goes in too far.
Crimp as much as you need for the rounds to feed smoothly, but make sure you are using good, proven mags - not what came with your Norinco :lol:
Good luck with it
Gunnar
www.armco-guns.com
Thanks Gunnar, This sounds like expert advise and I hear that ARMCO has professional, sound expertise knowledge. So thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. As I posed this question several weeks ago I have experimented with cartidge lenghts and crimps since, and at my last shoot I had zero problems (touch wood!) I believe it was that I was not seating the lead deep enough, and I have also found that some of the mags were always involved with the chambering trouble and other were not as much. So as you say, there are many possible explanations and it is wise to sort out the possibilities first. I will be in the market for some gun parts soon as I am making a deal on a colt that will need some upgrading, and I will look forward to dealing with you if you have the time. Thanks again.
icecold
icecold
Gunnar,
Good advise but I do not agree with you with overcrimping, specially on jacketed bullet. This damage the bullets and do not permit to have the benefit of what you pay for. This is just not needed. I hate to have a Sierra Tournament Master 185 grains bullet squeesed..
In all my .45 ACP load, I use the minimum crimp - .469 at the case mouth. You can opened up a group by much as 50 % by overcrimping.
On a precision gun, the last thing you want is a case holding by the extractor not the chamber.
If a gun to not load SWC , it should be modified accordingly.
Kuhnhausen book is 20 years old, but is still a good reference book.
Most shooter will benefit by reading it. They might decide after all, that they are better to send their gun to you to do the job !!
Good advise but I do not agree with you with overcrimping, specially on jacketed bullet. This damage the bullets and do not permit to have the benefit of what you pay for. This is just not needed. I hate to have a Sierra Tournament Master 185 grains bullet squeesed..
In all my .45 ACP load, I use the minimum crimp - .469 at the case mouth. You can opened up a group by much as 50 % by overcrimping.
On a precision gun, the last thing you want is a case holding by the extractor not the chamber.
If a gun to not load SWC , it should be modified accordingly.
Kuhnhausen book is 20 years old, but is still a good reference book.
Most shooter will benefit by reading it. They might decide after all, that they are better to send their gun to you to do the job !!
WRT mags, I view 1911 shooting in terms of two distinc eras:
1) Pre-Wilson Rogers mags. (BW)
2) Post Wilson Rogers mags. (AW)
In today's shooting world, not using Wilson mags that only cost a few more dollars than metalform or CMC, is doing the feeding and reliability level of your 1911 a great dis-service :shock:
The fully supported acrylic feed follower system and seamless smooth mag bodies coupled with the easily removable base plates for maintenance truely make these mags superior. Plus their system of round count display is without equal.
Even a cheap 1911 will feed out of its price point if the right mags are used - seriously.
1) Pre-Wilson Rogers mags. (BW)
2) Post Wilson Rogers mags. (AW)
In today's shooting world, not using Wilson mags that only cost a few more dollars than metalform or CMC, is doing the feeding and reliability level of your 1911 a great dis-service :shock:
The fully supported acrylic feed follower system and seamless smooth mag bodies coupled with the easily removable base plates for maintenance truely make these mags superior. Plus their system of round count display is without equal.
Even a cheap 1911 will feed out of its price point if the right mags are used - seriously.
McCormick = CMC. Yes, I've tried them all and dislike them all compared to Wilson, especially the CMC Power 10's - now THOSE are ####ty mags with a big price tag :shock:
I've never had or even seen a Wilson mag not work. Can't say the same for a McCormick mag.
Honestly, if CMC stuff was marketed under any other name than Chip McCormick, it'd be generally regarded as garbage IMHO. The man's name and 1911 shooting are almost synonymous, but his parts are generally all either cheap bead blasted castings or beaded MIM and I won't use them in my guns anymore after several critical parts failures due to casting inclusions.
I also once had a CMC mag well on a 1911 and the CMC mags wouldn't fit the gun with the mag well installed as the stock plastic floorplate bumper jammed on the mag well and the mag wouldn't fully seat as a result. Any manufacturer who can't get their #### together enough to make sure parts from the same company are compatible can't be very good.
I'll take forged and milled Wilson Hardcore parts, thanks.
I've never had or even seen a Wilson mag not work. Can't say the same for a McCormick mag.
Honestly, if CMC stuff was marketed under any other name than Chip McCormick, it'd be generally regarded as garbage IMHO. The man's name and 1911 shooting are almost synonymous, but his parts are generally all either cheap bead blasted castings or beaded MIM and I won't use them in my guns anymore after several critical parts failures due to casting inclusions.
I also once had a CMC mag well on a 1911 and the CMC mags wouldn't fit the gun with the mag well installed as the stock plastic floorplate bumper jammed on the mag well and the mag wouldn't fully seat as a result. Any manufacturer who can't get their #### together enough to make sure parts from the same company are compatible can't be very good.
I'll take forged and milled Wilson Hardcore parts, thanks.
The mags I had from McCormick that worked great were the early Shooting Star - 8 rounds mags.
Still got some and they work great. Can't talk about the new McCormik parts.
I use STI parts, EGW and Wilson. STI disconnector, sear and hammer are hard and give good service life. EGW has oversize parts that can be fitted perfectly when situation warrant.
Thanks for the info.
Still got some and they work great. Can't talk about the new McCormik parts.
I use STI parts, EGW and Wilson. STI disconnector, sear and hammer are hard and give good service life. EGW has oversize parts that can be fitted perfectly when situation warrant.
Thanks for the info.
