REALLY weird ammo malfunction!

J.Coughen

J.Coughen

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Actually, it might be a problem with the Lee Enfield MK III (1918) I purchased yesterday at the gun show. Took it to the range today, first ten rounds, no issues. Thankfully. My Dad fired two rounds, then had this problem occur three times within ten rounds. Fortunately, he's very observant, and noticed something was amiss. I tried a few more times and had it happen to me twice. The round gets completely sliced near the primer and the remainder of the case gets stuck in the barrel. It's a clean cut, and all affected rounds looked the same. However, the ones that got ejected nicely have a noticeably dent all the way around the case, as if they were on the verge of coming apart like the affected ones.

(edit: apparently I'm not allowed to put attachments/pictures of my problem so here is a google link to an image of my problem: http://www.google.com/search?rlz=&q=lee%20enfield%20.303%20cartridge%20problem&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=VX9XUZe0I4qUiQKioYDwDg&biw=1232&bih=615&sei=XH9XUaI5xOeLApWEgIAH#um=1&hl=en&authuser=0&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=.303+cartridge+split+&oq=.303+cartridge+split+&gs_l=img.3...21341.21349.2.21647.2.2.0.0.0.0.199.199.0j1.1.0...0.0...1c.1.7.img.KcP5PGrtBCM&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44442042,d.cGE&fp=c7fc038a12bb1ecb&biw=1232&bih=615&imgrc=hWVZhTNf-pkUJM%3A%3BuQ-H_w_7xzP3OM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.milsurps.com%252Fimages%252Fimported%252F2009%252F06%252F303sephead-1.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.milsurps.com%252Fshowthread.php%253Fp%253D109181%3B536%3B329

As seen in the picture, this is a very curious problem. My Dad, who reloads his own ammo, and several others at the range have never seen this before. It's Federal .303 ammo. Anyone know what the issue is? The rifle or the ammo? If so, how to rectify the problem? As soon as I fired it, I think I fell in love and want to keep shooting it without worrying about catastrophic explosions in my face.

Otherwise, the rifle fires just fine (awesome!), but I have to be very careful and observe every cartridge ejected. It's super fun and satisfying to shoot!

Thanks in advance.
 
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one of my old no4 mk 1's did the same thing, i just had to replace the bolt face with diferent head (i think its the .1 on it now) my freind had the same problem but it was the chamber on his that is screwed up. i believe its pretty comon for the lee enfields.
 
That is a headspace [problem and unfortunately, unlike the No 4 series of rifles, the No 1 series does not have interchangable bolt heads.
The barrel will have to be removed from the rifle, a few thou turned off the shoulder and rechambered and spun back on.

Scott
 
Thanks everyone! Don't know why I'm happy to discover this is a potentially common problem, but will look into sorting this problem out. Really like this rifle and its look (thanks to the guys at Alberta Gun Stocks from New Norway, AB).

Much appreciated.
 
I know of some guys using rubber o-rings or little pony tail rubber bands from the dollar store, to hold the case back in the chamber to get around headspace problems. I'm not sure if this would work for you or not. If 3 out of 10 are coming apart upon firing, I think your rifle may be beyond the o-ring fix though.
 
saskgunowner101 said:
I know of some guys using rubber o-rings or little pony tail rubber bands from the dollar store, to hold the case back in the chamber to get around headspace problems. I'm not sure if this would work for you or not. If 3 out of 10 are coming apart upon firing, I think your rifle may be beyond the o-ring fix though.
Click to expand...

My advice too. Lets's not forget the Lee Enfield family was designed to be maintained easily. The concept of interchangeable bolt heads is a stroke of genius, until the action is stretched beyond specification. Then the rifle is struck off strength with a DP marking, and relegated to the back of the rack.

The O-ring trick holds the case against the bolt face when the firing pin wants to push it forward into the chamber. That is what happened with your separated casing. Put the O-ring on the case and close the bolt. The case will expand to the chamber and be perfectly formed for the next reloading.
 
m-134 said:
one of my old no4 mk 1's did the same thing, i just had to replace the bolt face with diferent head (i think its the .1 on it now) my freind had the same problem but it was the chamber on his that is screwed up. i believe its pretty comon for the lee enfields.
Click to expand...

Thanks for coming out. Always helpful to provide a fix for a weapon other than the one the OP is having a problem with.

m39a2 said:
That is a headspace [problem and unfortunately, unlike the No 4 series of rifles, the No 1 series does not have interchangable bolt heads.
The barrel will have to be removed from the rifle, a few thou turned off the shoulder and rechambered and spun back on.

Very nice answer. At least addressed the proper fix for the rifle. However, is it worth fixing this way? Probably not.

Scott
Click to expand...

100%. Someone who read the first post and formulated a cognitive reply. Thank you, Scott.

zuke said:
A new bolt head is in order, at worse a complete bolt.
Does the serial number on the bolt match the rest of the rifle?
Click to expand...

I think the OP should send you the bolt and get you to do just that... Please pay attention...he is shooting a No 1, MkIII. Bolt heads don't swap out. Again, thanks for playing... Makes me wonder why people ask for advice on this site...

maple_leaf_eh said:
My advice too. Lets's not forget the Lee Enfield family was designed to be maintained easily. The concept of interchangeable bolt heads is a stroke of genius, until the action is stretched beyond specification. Then the rifle is struck off strength with a DP marking, and relegated to the back of the rack.

The O-ring trick holds the case against the bolt face when the firing pin wants to push it forward into the chamber. That is what happened with your separated casing. Put the O-ring on the case and close the bolt. The case will expand to the chamber and be perfectly formed for the next reloading.
Click to expand...

Decent advice with the O-ring that is proven to work and work well, especially if you reload, but, as before, you can't change the bolt head in a No1!!!!! So, useless info there.
 
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rookie wildcat said:
Thanks for coming out. Always helpful to provide a fix for a weapon other than the one the OP is having a problem with.





I think the OP should send you the bolt and get you to do just that... Please pay attention...he is shooting a No 1, MkIII. Bolt heads don't swap out. Again, thanks for playing... Makes me wonder why people ask for advice on this site...



Decent advice with the O-ring that is proven to work and work well, especially if you reload, but, as before, you can't change the bolt head in a No1!!!!! So, useless info there.
Click to expand...


I think someone missed their coffee this morning...

Simmer a bit?
 
OP,
you definitely have a headspace problem and it is obvious that your Dad and the other guys at the range don't reload for the .303Br or they would have seen this 100s of times.

A rimmed cartridge headspaces on the thickness of the rim while a rimless cartridge headspaces on the shoulder (pretty much the middle of the shoulder). However, you can headspace once-fired round on the shoulder using the o-ring trick or you can put o-rings on all of your ammo before you shoot it and then throw it away. Fact being that your father reloads, he would probably get upset by that...

Here's what you do since it is doubtful you have headspace gauges for your rifle...

find someone who reloads the .303 or get a set of dies yourself. Get them to de-prime the case. Now, measure the overall length of the case (from base to mouth).
Now, get the same person to just barely seat a primer in the pocket.
Remove the extractor from the bolt.
Next, feed the barely primed case into the chamber and close the bolt on the case. When you extract the case, the bolt face will have pushed the primer in as far as it could once the rim of the case contacted the chamber.
Measure the overall length of the case now from the base of the primer (which is still proud of the case base) and the mouth.
subtract your first measurement from this and you will have a number somewhere between .064" and .074". This is the headspace for your rifle.
Military specs for this rifle is Go: .064", No Go: .070", Field (absolute safe max): .074". The military was never worried about reloading so it could allow longer headspace.
SAAMI specs for this rifle are min (Go) at .064", No Go:.067", and Field: .070".
If you have headspace over .070", you will need to have the barrel set back by a competent person. This should cost between $125 and $200. Only you can decide if this is worth it. I would continue to shoot it with fire formed brass allowing the cartridge to headspace on the shoulder.
Your cases will stretch each time you fire them so neck sizing is particularly vital on tapered cases like the .303Br and you should get 6-10 reloads before you have to set the shoulder back. Once you set the shoulder back, you have to put the o-ring back on to fire-form it again.

Congrats on the new rifle. Enjoy it. Sorry so many of the early posts did not address your problem.
 
bollox said:
I think someone missed their coffee this morning...

Simmer a bit?
Click to expand...
Don't drink coffee. Just can't stand people offering their erroneous opinions to newbies who need answers, not crap about rifles they don't even own. We are supposed to be a resource for those less experienced here, not a bunch of idiots who can't comprehend a simple post and pose proper advice.

It is not like the OP wanted to know opinions on the best rifle for ... Blah, blah, blah. He was specific with his info on rifle and problem. Guys telling him to change the bolt head on a rifle that you can't do that on is simply useless and a waste of the OP's time.

What if someone said, "I am having trouble with my M94 lever action ejecting the rounds". Should we all come on here and tell him to get a bolt action rifle? Or to adjust the muzzle brake cuz that made my rifle work better? Or maybe to install an adjustable choke to reduce grouping sizes?

Or, how about all the times someone will ask "What's the best .30-06 I can get for under $500?". And people post sh!t like, "Don't bother with a .30-06, you need a .375 Ruger for deer around here" or " Well, my Benelli R1 shoots 3/4" all day and is as smooth as glass.". How the he!! Does that help anyone. If the guy was looking for a $1200 rifle, he would have said so...

If all you want to do is to increase your post count, do it in the "opinion" threads, not in a thread where someone has articulated a legitimate problem and requested assistance. If you think that's okay, then maybe you should give your head a shake...I don't. Far too much "mis-information" on the Internet already.

End rant.
 
You may also have a smith silver solder a shim on the bolt. Most SMLE' had a sloppy chamber to better deal with the muck and mire, add to that possibly several thousand rounds stretching the action, and this is the result. That said I am sure you could buy a lifetime supply of dental elastics, or O-rings for way less than having a smith do work on the rifle
th
 
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rookie wildcat said:
Don't drink coffee. Just can't stand people offering their erroneous opinions to newbies who need answers, not crap about rifles they don't even own. We are supposed to be a resource for those less experienced here, not a bunch of idiots who can't comprehend a simple post and pose proper advice.

It is not like the OP wanted to know opinions on the best rifle for ... Blah, blah, blah. He was specific with his info on rifle and problem. Guys telling him to change the bolt head on a rifle that you can't do that on is simply useless and a waste of the OP's time.

What if someone said, "I am having trouble with my M94 lever action ejecting the rounds". Should we all come on here and tell him to get a bolt action rifle? Or to adjust the muzzle brake cuz that made my rifle work better? Or maybe to install an adjustable choke to reduce grouping sizes?

Or, how about all the times someone will ask "What's the best .30-06 I can get for under $500?". And people post sh!t like, "Don't bother with a .30-06, you need a .375 Ruger for deer around here" or " Well, my Benelli R1 shoots 3/4" all day and is as smooth as glass.". How the he!! Does that help anyone. If the guy was looking for a $1200 rifle, he would have said so...

If all you want to do is to increase your post count, do it in the "opinion" threads, not in a thread where someone has articulated a legitimate problem and requested assistance. If you think that's okay, then maybe you should give your head a shake...I don't. Far too much "mis-information" on the Internet already.

End rant.
Click to expand...

Ahh, first time on internet, eh? Well, welcome to CGN! Take a deep breath, it's going to be OK, pm me if you need a manly hug, and a cold beer, I have plenty. Mind you, you are right, it's just irrelevent. Don't tilt at windmills, the windmill always win. ;)
 
rookie wildcat said:
Thanks for coming out. Always helpful to provide a fix for a weapon other than the one the OP is having a problem with.



100%. Someone who read the first post and formulated a cognitive reply. Thank you, Scott.



I think the OP should send you the bolt and get you to do just that... Please pay attention...he is shooting a No 1, MkIII. Bolt heads don't swap out. Again, thanks for playing... Makes me wonder why people ask for advice on this site...



Decent advice with the O-ring that is proven to work and work well, especially if you reload, but, as before, you can't change the bolt head in a No1!!!!! So, useless info there.
Click to expand...

Actually You can get oversized No1 bolt heads.You would then stone them to size using your headspace gauges and engineers blue.
 
Rookie Wildcat - I've replaced several bolt heads on No1's! These rifles were designed to have the bolt heads swapped out - the bolt heads just arent marked - you have to measure them.
Also, your assertion that the o-ring trick causes the 303 case to headspace on the shoulder is incorrect. The o-ring tightens the rim headspace, thus reducing the case expansion at the web. However, the shoulder still gets blown out. In a grossly oversize chamber, the o-ring trick may have limited benefits.
 
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mr.e moose said:
Actually You can get oversized No1 bolt heads.You would then stone them to size using your headspace gauges and engineers blue.
Click to expand...

Correct, therefore, due to the careful work involved (and the difficulty of obtaining one longer than the OP has) NOT A SWAP-OUT.

cosmic said:
Rookie Wildcat - I've replaced several bolt heads on No1's! These rifles were designed to have the bolt heads swapped out - the bolt heads just arent marked - you have to measure them.
Also, your assertion that the o-ring trick causes the 303 case to headspace on the shoulder is incorrect. The o-ring tightens the rim headspace, thus reducing the case expansion at the web. However, the shoulder still gets blown out. In a grossly oversize chamber, the o-ring trick may have limited benefits.
Click to expand...

And, I, too have changed several, but not for years since I do not have access to parts anymore (Marstar was my last hold out and they have been gone for awhile) and you need a dozen on hand to match them up.

The o-ring trick holds the base on the bolt head. Firing the round blows the brass out to fit the chamber. Now, the brass will headspace on the shoulder next time you use it. Check and see. Add the o-ring, fire-form the round, eject the case, neck size it and drop it in the chamber. Push it forward and it will stop before it bottoms out on the rim cutout. Exactly the same as any rimless round. You have now resized the ce to headspace on the shoulder. No need for the o-ring until you push back the shoulder.
 
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