Rebarreling a Rolling block?

ErikT

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I've been looking at one of those Swedish 1867 Rolling Blocks at TradeEx, and I was just wondering what sort of pressures they were built to handle? I've been thinking of a nice custom long-range rifle in .40-65 or similar, and was wondering if those old beasts would be up to handle some hearty target (or even moose/elk) loads? I've also been thinking along the lines of a .38-55 or .32-40, just for something different that doesn't kick too hard. Any thoughts?

Erik.
 
They will certainly handle the cartridges in black powder loads. For smokeless loads you would have to bush the firing pin and it would be a good idea even for black powder loads. Also with smokeless loads in your chosen calibers, keep your loads moderate even though the gun is probably capable of standing up to a fairly hot load.
If you multiplied the pressure of the 7mm or 8 mm smokeless rounds the later models were chambered for, x the base diameter squared, it will give you a number for comparison in terms of thrust on the breach. Compare that number with the same calculated for your proposed new caliber loaded with smokeless powder and it should give you an idea if you are proposing more thrust on the breach than the smokeless versions of the gun were designed for

cheers mooncoon

cheers mooncoon
 
For best hunting results for Moose and Black Powder pressures, you would be best off with one of the .45 Cals.(usually 45/70). If you were just shooting targets and Deer sized animals the 38/55 and 32/40 are good bets. The 40/65 is a good compromise with it's 400 gr bullets, and match winning record. You are entering a fun and educational shooting discipline and there is alot to discover. Whatever cal. you go with, usually bullets suited for long range work are not the best for hunting big game.
 
Very do-able idea. I have 3 actions and a .40 barrel waiting in the wings for just such a project myself.

The rolling block is simple and sturdy action but they were not built to the standards or pressures that modern smokeless might require. It can be done safely but I personally feel that they shoot better with black and like being more faithful to the era that generated these rifles.

The guns at Tradeex that are chambered in 8X58R are the 1867 actions that have been updated with new blocks (tigher firing pin holes and rotary extractors) and retempered. They should be tigher and stronger than the one chambered in 12.7X44R.


http://dutchman.rebooty.com/rb.html

http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=3

http://www.skydevaaben.com/index.xml
 
LOL. The Swede guns are chambered in two different calibers. one is a 12.7mm cartirdge - in these actions, only shoot black powder pressure loads.

The second batch were refurbed in the 1890's and later. They are chambered in 8x58RD. This is a relatively modern high-velocity smokless load. COTW list it at 46,412 psi by the older copper method. Modern straing gauge PSI would put that number even higher.

This means that the rolling blocks built between 1867 and roughly 1876 and re-case hardened in roughly 1891 to 1896 have been re-chambered to a round pruding pressure equivalent to average chamber pressure for the small ring Mauser like the 1896 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55.

The story does not end here though...

In 1908 the Danes switched from compressed black powder loads to modern smokeless in their 8x58RD loads. This was a cartridge loaded with a 196 grain spitzer at 2,460 fps. This proved too powerful for some of the rolling block rifles, and a reduced charge load using the Dane bullet was developed for the rolling blocks ONLY. It used the same bullet but produced 1950 BAR, or 28,282psi.

what does all this mean? Basically it means that the actions from the 8x58RD are perfectly safe for anything up to 28,000 psi using the older CUP method of pressure measurement.

Trapdoor or "cowboy action" loads are designed to mimic Black Powder pressures, i.e. less than 18,000 psi. Any of these will be perfectly safe in a rolling block action - probably even the 12.7mm based guns.

Standard loads are designed to produce under 28,000 psi and should be good for the 8x58Rd actions. This is what I use in my example rebarelled for .45-70.

The hot marlin 336 loads SHOULD BE AVOIDED.

As for .45-90 or .45-110 loads, those cartridges should be loaded to black powder equivalent in ANY firearm. Neither was produced for modern smokeless.

As noted above, the later re-hardened actions have NEW hammer and breech block assemblies. They are made of more modern steels and are glass-hard. No need to bush the pins on these ones and they even have a built-in loaded chamber indicator that doubles as a gas port.

Re-barelling can be challenging on these. They are square whitworth threaded and there are some interesting cuts you need to make to get the extractor to fit. I've done it, it's doable, but is not for beginners and will be a much more expensive re-barrel job than on a typical modern rifle. You need both a mill and a lathe as well.

Hope that helps! :)
 
The second batch were refurbed in the 1890's and later. They are chambered in 8x58RD. This is a relatively modern high-velocity smokless load. COTW list it at 46,412 psi by the older copper method. Modern straing gauge PSI would put that number even higher.

Cartridges of the World is absolutly full of errors, and this is one of them. This would be a dangerously high pressure in one of these rolling blocks. One of the Swedish rolling block sites has some photos of a roller that the breach block blew up on, driving a chunk into the shooter's brain, killing him. DO NOT USE THE LOADING DATA FROM COTW IN A ROLLING BLOCK.
 
Well, thanks a whole lot to everyone who replied! I've been drooling over those BPCR rifles for a long time, and I was thinking of building one for myself on an old roller. No matter what route and calibre I pursue, I will definitely do my research and ensure my own safety (and innocent bystanders!) before sending lead downrange. I'm leaning toward the .40-65 just for its "coolness" factor and the fact that it makes a tremendous match round. I'm still in the planning stages, so it may be some time before I make a decision and start building. Plus, I have several other projects that I need to finish first!

Erik.
 
I think the big thing is to keep your loads moderate and not subscribe to magnumitis. As long as you stick to black powder or smokeless equivalents, you should be fairly safe

cheers mooncoon
 
Re-barelling can be challenging on these. They are square whitworth threaded ....

To be clear, they have a square thread. Whitworth is another (and unrelated) thing entirely.

Threading a square thread is a job that must be done with some patience, as it is none too hard to blow the end off the threading tool with the full width engaged throughout the cut, but is is not a lot more effort than cutting a nice thread of any other shape.

Use a piece of plasticine or similar modeling clay, and check the threads in your action.

On the action I have, the threads are not a full square form, closer to 1/2 height. It changes how much material you need to cut off your barrel. Knowing that, is a good thing.
I am scraping together things I need to build a 40-65 on mine.:)

Cheers
Trev
 
I think square threads are a royal pain to cut. V threads will go from too tight to a crush fit to loose as you remove small amounts of metal. Square threads seem to go from too tight to loose almost immediately. The actual cutting is not that difficult, it is getting a snug fit which is the problem

cheers mooncoon
 
Cartridges of the World is absolutly full of errors, and this is one of them. This would be a dangerously high pressure in one of these rolling blocks. One of the Swedish rolling block sites has some photos of a roller that the breach block blew up on, driving a chunk into the shooter's brain, killing him. DO NOT USE THE LOADING DATA FROM COTW IN A ROLLING BLOCK.

Glad to see you read my whole post... :jerkit:
 
To be clear, they have a square thread. Whitworth is another (and unrelated) thing entirely.

You're right - I must have had a brain fart there. Whitworth is British BSW thread.

Square thread is self-evident. It's also almost never used anymore, having been largely supplanted by ACME threads.
 
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