Recoil, or something else?

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Rayleigh_Scattering

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I seek wisdom.

I've long understood that (other than my failing middle-aged vision and lack of budget for practice ammo) the biggest thing preventing me from hitting what I'm aiming at is that I flinch.

I say this because after a while of dry-firing the first one or two shots go right where I want them. After that it strings out all jerky.

The gun is an 1100 clone. My intended venue is white tail in forest with <30m bushy sight lines and rancher neighbours on adjoining quarters. Based on that the ammo is 12x00buck at just over 1300fps.

It was suggested to me that this gun/ammo combination shouldn't be causing a flinch-inducing level of recoil unless there was something wrong with the machine (or I was particularly limp-wristed). The suggestion was that bad head-spacing could be causing a higher felt recoil. That sounds iffy to me from a conservation of momentum point of view, but I've been wrong before.

I know that the 7.62x54R that kicked painfully in a mosin was a nudge from a playful (though very loud) kitten in the SVT. Mind you, Sveta did have that balls-out muzzle brake..

I see lower mass/velocity "reduced recoil" ammo for sale. But I also see what looks to be debilitatingly high recoil 3.5" more-mass/faster versions of the same thing available.

Questions are:

Is what I'm shooting a round that a fellow at 6'/200lbs should be able to shoot all day long without being beaten up by it too much?

Is there a relationship between state of wear and recoil?

Other than just manning up, am I better off switching to a heavier platform or to lower-recoil shells? I could connect a couple of kilos of steel ballast easily enough, although I'd have to shlep it for miles.

Does one just depend on the "It only takes one shot per season, so dry-fire your flinch away and go with it." approach?

Or do I have to load buckshot into .50BMG brass with little holes drilled in the sides and start machining up a swinging venturi breech?
 
Rayleigh_Scattering said:
The suggestion was that bad head-spacing could be causing a higher felt recoil. That sounds iffy to me from a conservation of momentum point of view, but I've been wrong before.
Click to expand...

Fwiw, Gough Thomas wrote in one of his books that one of the hardest kicking shotguns he'd ever fired was an ordinary 12g double with and excess headspace problem. I don't know the physics behind it, but I trust Thomas' opinion enough to take his word for it.
 
I am not sure I would want to shoot your ammo (12x00buck at just over 1300fps) … all day long … meaning hundreds of rounds …. Especially not if that gun does not have a very nice recoil pad.

I use a Limbsaver Airtech Slip-on Recoil Pad … and whenever I am heading out for a longer shooting session. That is one thing that helped me ….

The other is …. trying to shoot groups with slugs and from a bench rest.
If you can shoot a decent slug group from bench rest … then you are likely not flinching.
And if you can’t keep those slugs together on the target … then the likelihood that you are flinching is high …

I flinched when I started out with 12ga … and shooting low recoil slugs from bench rest has helped me to get rid of my bad habits and tame that gun. I find it much easier to control all other variables from a bench rest …. and focus on the trigger squeeze …
 
This is not an issue only for certain guns or certain people. Rather, this question comes up regularly. The answer is always the same:

All other factors being equal, felt recoil depends on the weight of the shot charge relative to the weight of the gun. This means that an 1 1/2 ounce loaded shell will always kick harder than a 1.0 ounce load through the same gun. It also means that, using a given load (say 1 1/8 ounce load) through a 6 lb gun will recoil harder than the same load through an 8 lb gun. These two factors - shot charge weight and gun weight - are by far the most noticeable variables (to recoil).

Usually that's the end of the conversation because the other factors aren't usually as influential to felt recoil, but that doesn't mean there are no other considerations. The tested speed of the load can also add or reduce recoil slightly (higher speed rounds will add slightly to recoil compared to slower burning shells). Autoloaders are usually softer shooting than other designs because they absorb some of the energy to power the cycling of the action.

Excessive head space probably allows the shell to accelerate slightly before transferring the recoil energy to the receiver (and through to your shoulder). Call me a skeptic, but I doubt it would produce a significant difference. Not that I doubt what you or Gough Thomas have experienced, just that it's more likely a different cause.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that your clone is perhaps too light for heavy buckshot loads. Autoloaders, in general, are either tuned to the shells for which they're intended (light or heavy), or they incorporate a self-adjusting mechanism in an effort to make them cycle with loads at either extreme. Remington 1100s were designed before the era of self-adjusting systems, and a clone is even less likely to incorporate such designs. I've never owned an 1100, but I did shoot an 11-87 for several years. The 11-87 had a nylon ring that was to be installed one way for light loads and reversed for heavy loads.

If I were in your shoes, I would be looking at:

- what adjustments are designed into the gun to tune it for light or heavy loads, if any
- what buckshot load options do you have (looking for lighter loads). Note: 9 standard '00' buckshot pellets weigh just under 1 1/8 ounces. Loads with less than nine '00' buckshot pellets will, of course, weigh less.
- check the weight of the gun. It could be made from thinner or lighter materials than a Remington (some plastic or aluminum parts that are steel on the original) and may need to have weight added in order to soak up some of that recoil.

One last thought. Consider padding your shooting shoulder with a gel recoil pad. Not many people want to snug up to a shotgun that kicks hard every time. Rather, consciously or otherwise, the tendency is to hold the gun away from the shoulder. This is horribly counterproductive - it adds to the recoil by allowing the whole gun to accelerate before hitting the shoulder.

You never want a death grip on any type of firearm but, at the same time, holding it loosely is worse (especially for recoil). Practice holding the gun firmly into the shoulder (short of a death grip) and protect your shoulder in the meantime, until you get the recoil issue figured out. A gel pad will prevent further bruising of the shoulder, allow it to heal, and give you some breathing space to resolve the problem without aggravating any flinch. BTW, a badly bruised shoulder, if allowed to heal, is much less sensitive than before it was bruised.
 
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+1 to a good gel recoil pad, I shot a few boxes of 3” 12g sabots that had me black and blue for a week. It was punishing to say the least, the limbsaver I put on makes 3” magnums feel like target load. I’m not overly recoil sensitive but getting beat up by a shotgun isn’t much fun in the long run, especially if you start to anticipate the beating before you fire it.
 
Hi - I just wanted to vote for the Limbsaver solution. I have a Girsan semi that's inertia recoil action - said to be a bit harsher than gas - that I have a slip-on LS on. I shot 10 rounds of 1-oz slugs @ 1600fps to zero this, with no ill effect. And I have a Hatsan pump (syth stock) with the Limbsaver pad replacement that I did the same zero with. And I have a Hatsan 14" Marine Guard pump (synth stock) with the slip-on that I zeroed with the same slugs, too. I'm 70 years old and only 5'9" and 160 lbs. And I don't like recoil punches - I put a recoil pad on my SKS, too. My Rem 700 - .308 came with a good pad.
Just sayin' . . .
 
There are three significant components to recoil - Weight of the gun, weight of the projectile, velocity of the projectile.

You can reduce the effect of recoil by adding a better recoil pad, adding weight to the gun, or reducing mass/velocity of the shotshell ejecta.

You can calculate the recoil energy of your gun/ammo combination. http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html

Your ammo produces about 28 ft/lbs of recoil energy in a 7.5 pound gun. Handicap Trap loads produce about 18 ft/lbs of energy in the same weight of gun.

People routinely get a flinch from shooting a heavy diet of Handicap Trap loads. No wonder your buckshot load gives you a hard time.
 
I don't even feel or notice recoil when shooting at game. Practice with a lead sled, it makes the world of difference. If your flinching still while shooting at game than it sounds like therapy is an option lol
 
Practice shooting while standing up with a tripod or similar elevated rest.
Your body will tend to rock to absorb more of the recoil and it is not near as bad.
Hunched over a rifle while sitting can be brutal with big bore guns.
 
A good part of developing a personal tolerance to recoil comes from practice. I recommend starting out with just one or two offhand shots whenever you can. It's a bit like learning to take punches or breaking in hockey skates, you want to build up to it. And of course, along with the other suggestions a semi auto will always help.
 
>Weight of the gun

That's an interesting idea. I'd been going under the assumption that it was the impulse that mattered, rather than the velocity-change of the gun.

Ballast may be the key, then.

I'd meant to weigh the 1100 clone I'm using, but it maxes out the kitchen scale and we have no stand-on scales in the house.

Got rid of those years ago; way too much drama.

>28 vs 18 ft/lbs

That's a very useful data point, actually.

I'm too old to still think that I can do things that are ergonomically harmful and not pay a price for it.

So what masochists are shooting those 3.5" shells?

"Recoil is irrelevant when a tiger is climbing into your howdah."

>shooting at game

I can't remember the gun ever making noise either. I'm new enough at this that adrenaline messes up my senses.
 
You can also do most of your firearm practice with lighter recoil loads.
You don't need to shoot the heavy recoil loads for gaining confidence in handling your shotgun.
 
Rayleigh_Scattering said:
>Weight of the gun

That's an interesting idea. I'd been going under the assumption that it was the impulse that mattered, rather than the velocity-change of the gun.

Ballast may be the key, then.

I'd meant to weigh the 1100 clone I'm using, but it maxes out the kitchen scale and we have no stand-on scales in the house.

Got rid of those years ago; way too much drama.

>28 vs 18 ft/lbs

That's a very useful data point, actually.

I'm too old to still think that I can do things that are ergonomically harmful and not pay a price for it.

So what masochists are shooting those 3.5" shells?

"Recoil is irrelevant when a tiger is climbing into your howdah."

>shooting at game

I can't remember the gun ever making noise either. I'm new enough at this that adrenaline messes up my senses.
Click to expand...

IMO, your recoil issue is primarily caused by the load being used. By my calculation, this means the shot load is 1 1/2 ounces (12 X '00' buckshot). You may or may not be aware that 00 buckshot is basically .30 caliber balls. So, you're preparing to hunt deer with a load that fires 12 X 30-caliber balls with every shot. The first thing I have to ask is: Are you planning this hunt in a shotgun-only zone? If not, if you could be hunting with a rifle in the same area, I would recommend using a rifle for deer hunting. Not that a shotgun won't do the job, just that a rifle does it better. I have never needed more than 1 shot to drop a deer (shot placement being important, of course). Rifles are inherently more accurate at typical deer hunting distances. 30-caliber rifles are the most commonly used deer rifles. Don't forget you want to eat that deer. Hitting a deer with 12 30-caliber buck shot is going to ruin a lot of the best meat money can't buy! If it's an option, forget the shotgun, use a rifle. This whole paragraph may seem anti-shotgun, but it's really just pro "use the right tool for the job". I am first and foremost a shotgunner. I have pistols and revolvers and a few rifles, and LOTS of shotguns. So, I'm definitely not anti-shotgun.

But, perhaps you will be hunting in a shotgun-only zone. In that case, I would still recommend you forget about those buckshot rounds. If you intend to hunt deer with a shotgun, I would advise using slugs (the lightest slugs you can find). Since your barrel is likely unrifled, you need to look at Brenneke-style slugs (the ones with vanes on the outside, as opposed to the solid slugs that don't compress going through the choke). If your barrel is rifled, those buckshot rounds would be anything except accurate. A single slug placed in the shoulder/heart/lung area will drop a deer virtually instantly. And, it will make enough of a mess to make you real glad you didn't fire 12 projectiles at the thing.

When shotgun shells were first being developed, they were 1 1/2" to 2" long. They worked just as well as "modern" cartridges on both big game and bird game. But, there has always been the crowd that thinks that if an ounce of shot is good, then an ounce and a half must be better. These same people think that if 1200 fps is good, 1350 fps must be better. However, these are not the facts. It only takes one pellet to drop a bird, and only one slug or 30-cal ball to drop a deer. Granted, most people want more than one pellet in their birdshot shell but, if you need more than 80 to 100 pellets to hit a bird, I can assure you your ammunition is not your problem. I buy 2 1/2" low pressure shells for all my bird hunting. These are light loads (typically 1.0 ounces or less) with slow burning powders, to keep pressures low. They're ideal for vintage guns that are chambered in 2 1/2", but I use them in all my shotguns. They are soft on the shoulder and HARD on the birds. The only time I use 2 3/4" shells is when using larger shot sizes for sharptail or pheasant (and only because those shot sizes are non-existent in 2 1/2" shells), or when shooting in international trap competitions (again, only because 24 gram loads aren't made in 2 1/2"). 3" and 3 1/2" shells were originally for people who couldn't hit a barn with 2 or 3 out of 150 pellets, but these "magnum" loads found a real purpose when steel shot became mandatory for migratory birds. They can be used successfully on migratory birds because the guns can be ridiculously heavy to compensate - geese and duck hunters typically stay put and don't carry their guns any great distances.

My secret to deer hunting success has always been to let them come to me. I find a spot where they pass through in the morning and I hide in the tall grass leaning against a tree. I go out to my spot at 4:00AM and sit as still as a rock (making sure all reflective surfaces such as glasses or scope lenses are covered so as to not reflect light). I sit with my knees up in front of me and the gun resting on my knees, so it's only a few inches and a brief instant to bring it up to shoot. I shoot from this sitting position. By 7:00AM, I've usually seen a doe or two, each followed by a procession of bucks. I pick out a nice buck and line up a shot just behind the shoulder. These are typically 80 yard shots. I don't shoot at moving animals (birds on the wing being an exception).

I hope some of what folks have shared with you here helps. BTW, gel recoil pads are also available as a flat pad that can go under your shirt.
 
>why shotgun

Hilly bush with rancher neighbours on adjacent quarters. I've often got no clear sight lines to a backstop, so I want to stick with 00 shot so that the inherent range limitations guarantee they get no new holes in their stock/barns. I'm certain there are no structures within the c400m that I see the max free ballistic range of 00 buck to be listed. I suppose it's a self-declared "shotgun only" area.

I may have worked my way into a circular error here. I wanted to use many pellets at a generous spread because I'm a bad shot. But using many pellets causes big recoil, which causes me to flinch, which is the biggest part of why I'm a bad shot.

Fewer balls means less recoil, means less flinch, means less error, and gets me to the same place with less meat destroyed. Ideally, a single light slug as you suggest.

I'd need to find out, if I went light, whether I could get my accuracy good enough. The fact that currently my first not-flinch-yet shot does go where I want suggests that should be possible.

>let them come to me

Mandatory. I sneak as sneakily as I can, and I still see fresh (like dirt crumbles off it as I watch) hoof prints on the paths in front of me. They hear/smell me long before I catch a glimpse of them. It'll be ambush or nothing.
 
At 6 ft 200 lbs the issue is not likely recoil it's stock design unless you have had a serious shoulder injury. Forcing buckshot through a tight choke will raise recoil quite a lot too, and it ruins a pattern.

If your shooting style is upright/straight necked due to injury (me) or habit, the butt of said shotgun will only be contacting your shoulder on the toe, meaning all recoil is into a smaller area. Additionally, larger pecs will shift the buttstock into your bicep, also amplifying felt recoil. Combining this setup with a stock cast to the left, via design, warp, cheekpiece, or shell carrier, or having a wide face, and you'll get a serious slap in the face with each shot. If your fingers are thick and you get a thumb knuckle in the nose that'll do a guy in too.

Try using shims to adjust your cast, pitch, drop, and length of pull. Your stock, if factory, is designed for about a 5'10 man of average build.
 
Flinching is your bodies natural and instinctive reaction to the thought of getting hurt. Once you've been hurt a time or two then your brain remembers how it happened and kicks in automatically to save you from further harm and to just "man up" is a draconian way of dealing with it. Your height and weight has little to do with handling recoil, I used to know a 100 lb lady that shot a 300 magnum better than most men. You can train yourself not to flinch while shooting just like a boxer trains them self not to close their eyes when getting punched in the nose but it takes time and practice. I've shot lots of heavy recoiling guns and the way I mitigate the flinch during a range session is to shoot a lot of .22 rimfire while the heavy recoiling rifles are cooling in between groups, it works wonders for reassuring the brain that the body is not going to get hurt! So does a good recoil pad (Limbsaver) and gel pad in a vest and of course gun fit. If your taking recoil to the face then that needs to be fixed before you go any further. Of course the really heavy recoilers are far better handled standing with shooting sticks than hunched over a bench.
Your load is pretty stout and it's no surprise that your brain recognizes it as something that will hurt. I've shot hundreds of thousands of shotgun shell target loads and the cumulative effect has caused a flinch to creep in now and then even though I'm shooting a 9 lb gun with light loads. I flinch about one shot every hundred these days but I'm not making money at this so it is what it is.
 
Agreed that gun fit is important although, unless it's REALLY bad, it's going to adversely affect your ability to shoot where you're looking more so than felt recoil. Too tight of a choke will, as already mentioned, raise pressures. It will also wreck havoc with shot patterns when using larger pellet sizes.

Somewhere in the range of Improved Cylinder to Modified will likely be the best choke for buckshot and/or slugs.
 
Ever thought of getting better hearing protection?

As silly as it might sound, I've many instances where the impending noizes caused more flinch than the actual recoil.
At least that's how it worked with the wife and many of her female friend.
- They shoot 22lr handgun no problem, give them a 9mm or 45acp and they're all over the target.
- Get them to use ear plugs along with ear muff, and they'll shoot the 45 acp just as good as the 22lr.
 
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