Redding bullet seater leaving marks and sticking

[tomapleleafss]

Hey everyone, started up some 7mm RM rounds today and noticed that something doesn't quite seem right with my Redding micro bullet seater. I think it was happening before, just never really paid much attention to it. First off when I run the round up then pull it out it sticks a little bit at one point (see the picture, you can see the little bit of space between the shell holder and the bottom of the brass). It is always in the same spot and doesn't matter if I just touch the seater or push the whole bullet in. Second are the marks left on the bullet. I completely cleaned the die. Before I was getting the round marks left on the bullet. I Google-fued it, and lots of people said if the seater just doesn't quite fit the bullet it will do that. I put a bullet in a drill with a bit of abrasive compound on it and it seemed to fix the ring. But you can still see some vertical lines (separate from the scuff looking marks towards the bottom). I have a feeling the two issues are related but cannot figure it out. Have the same bullet seater for my 6.5 and no issues there. Using new Hornady brass. Here are the links to the two pictures. Thanks again.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15h7g68CyzDwO8Z7hw_EmDVdhj65oZUUK/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a7XaW0PJf6nlcAwducPiMeRzD2OG4AvU/view?usp=sharing

 

[Chargerguy]

Can't see much in the pics. Are you using a VLD seating stem? Is it a compressed load or have you loaded any compressed loads with it? If so maybe the stem has been damaged/flared as I don't believe they are hardened. Does the stem slide in and out of the die easily?

 

[bigedp51]

What make and type resizing die are you using, and do you have a runout gauge.

 

[rick357]

Take it apart again. See where the seating stem fits on to that bullet when it is doing it's job. Another go with some more polishing media like Mother's. You have to use multiple bullets (possibly 20 or more with only 5 or 10 turns on each!) and never the same one twice. The polishing compound chews away the soft copper jacket far faster than it cuts away the steel that you want to remove inside the stem. Those striations are likely from particles of polishing/grinding compound that are not cleaned out from your prior attempt. Once you have modified this seating stem be aware that it may not work as well with another make/type/weight of bullet. They each have different ogive shapes. The stem supplied initially is made as a generic approximation of whatever shape Redding is set up to make. Other custom stems can be ordered/made.

 

[bigedp51]

I asked about the sizing die because the OP said the case was hanging up in the seating die. And that might mean the case neck might be pulled off center by the expander. Or if a bushing die is being used the same thing might be happening. This can happen if the necks are not turned and have unequal neck thickness and reduced in diameter more than .004.

If the rub mark is only on one side of the bullet and not around the entire circumference it indicates the bullet is tipping and way off center.

I was going to suggest to full length resize a case without the expander and see if the case hangs up in the seating die. The FL die will make the case as concentric as possible and eliminate any case warping or off center necks. My guess if the seating die still hangs up with a FL sized case then something is wrong with the seating die.

My 2 1/2 cents

 

[rick357]

I asked about the sizing die because the OP said the case was hanging up in the seating die. And that might mean the case neck might be pulled off center by the expander. Or if a bushing die is being used the same thing might be happening. This can happen if the necks are not turned and have unequal neck thickness and reduced in diameter more than .004.

If the rub mark is only on one side of the bullet and not around the entire circumference it indicates the bullet is tipping and way off center.

I was going to suggest to full length resize a case without the expander and see if the case hangs up in the seating die. The FL die will make the case as concentric as possible and eliminate any case warping or off center necks. My guess if the seating die still hangs up with a FL sized case then something is wrong with the seating die.

My 2 1/2 cents

Kind of makes sense too. My interpretation was that the entire problem was due to the bullet getting captured in the seating stem and not being released. If the case is off-center then there are other possibilities/problems to look at as you mention.

 

[tomapleleafss]

I'll try to answer your questions to get a better understanding.
- No compressed loads.
- REDDING 7mm Rem Mag TYPE S MATCH FL DIE SET (I love copy and paste) is the set I bought, so a Type S Match bullet seater. No runout gauge.
- I am using the seating stem that came with the die. FYI I am using Berger Trophy Hunter 175 gr.
- I had cleaned out the stem and put a smidge of oil on it before and after using the rubbing compound. Everything was clean and silky smooth.
- bigedp51 makes a good point. I did turn the outside turn the necks (Forster) but the necks didn't look and feel (just a bit of texture like feeling on the necks) like the other times I had used it. The pilot wasn't sloppy but not snug either when I used it. This is brand new brass so the expander issue in the FL die is not a factor. But he is right, there is only the scuff marks on one side which is what I believe is causing the resistance when removing the round.

So, I just thought writing this why just don't I try some other brass. I have some 1F that I had outside neck turned as well. You can tell a difference in the necks. These ones are silky smooth and had no trouble with the die. No time tonight to actually reload a few round but I will try the other brass in the next few nights.

 

[bigedp51]

The problem with bushing dies is they work best with a tight neck chamber and neck turned brass. The problem is if the bushing reduces the neck diameter .004 or more the bushing can induce neck runout. Meaning most factory clamberers let the neck expand way more than .004 and you will get more runout than a non-bushing full length die. The neck diameter of the 7mm mag chamber is approximately .316 and a loaded round with .012 neck thickness will let the neck expand .008.

The bushing floats in the die and can move from side to side and even tilt when reducing the neck diameter. This is why Redding recommends if reducing the neck diameter over .004 to reduce the neck diameter in two steps. This is why more people use a body die and the Lee collet die to reduce the neck diameter, because they get far less runout with this method.

I highly recommend using a Forster non-bushing full length die with their high mounted floating expander. At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies. So again the average off the shelf factory rifle will let the neck expand .008 or more when fired. So a bushing die may not be the best option for sizing your cases.

Below you can see the 7mm mag chamber drawing and the neck diameter is between .3170 and .3160. So you would subtract your neck thickness x2 plus the bullet diameter to get your neck clearance and how much the neck will expand when fired.

If your going to turn your necks you need a neck thickness gauge and with any type resized case a runout gauge to make straight ammo.

 

[tomapleleafss]

That is some great info there. Stuff I never knew. I bought my outside neck turner back when I first got into reloading. It looked and sounded like a great idea if all my necks were exactly the same. I thought with a bushing die, if the outside necks varied in thickness slightly, that would induce runout. Never thought if the neck was to sloppy the problems that can bring. It actually sat for a long time and then I got around to thinking if I have it, why not use it. Perhaps this wasn't the best idea. I don't want to buy anymore equipment and maybe it just isn't worth it. I perhaps may have already ruined 100 pieces of new brass and 75 of once fired brass. It seems don't have the appropriate equipment to do it right anyway. And the simpler my reloading process is, probably the better. Appreciate the help.

 

[bigedp51]

That is some great info there. Stuff I never knew. I bought my outside neck turner back when I first got into reloading. It looked and sounded like a great idea if all my necks were exactly the same. I thought with a bushing die, if the outside necks varied in thickness slightly, that would induce runout. Never thought if the neck was to sloppy the problems that can bring. It actually sat for a long time and then I got around to thinking if I have it, why not use it. Perhaps this wasn't the best idea. I don't want to buy anymore equipment and maybe it just isn't worth it. I perhaps may have already ruined 100 pieces of new brass and 75 of once fired brass. It seems don't have the appropriate equipment to do it right anyway. And the simpler my reloading process is, probably the better. Appreciate the help.

The Redding website tells you if you do not turn the necks and if the case necks vary .002 or more to reduce the neck diameter .004 more than a loaded cartridge and use the expander. Meaning let the expander push the irregularities to the outside of the case neck.

You can try buying a Lee full length sizer die with it ridged expander and it might straighten the necks back out. Or try the Lee collet die that will size the neck and do the same thing. You could use your Redding die and remove the bushing and use it as a body die and then follow with the Lee collet neck sizing die.

Or maybe someone in Canada can help you out with a used full length die to fix your problem. Or someone come up with a better and cheaper fix for the problem.

Below a Lee resizing die with its ridged expander

 

[tomapleleafss]

Ok, I finally got around to borrowing a concentric gauge and with the butchered job on the necks it turns out I got about .005" of runout. This is brand new brass that has never been through I die yet. I have some other brass that I turned the necks and it is within .001" unloaded and loaded. I am thinking I have just ruined 100 pieces of brass. By the time I re-turn the necks, the neck thickness will be pretty thin. Is there a limit on how thin the necks can be? Or could I run them through the fl bushing die and maybe salvage them that way?

 

[rick357]

Ok, I finally got around to borrowing a concentric gauge and with the butchered job on the necks it turns out I got about .005" of runout. This is brand new brass that has never been through I die yet. I have some other brass that I turned the necks and it is within .001" unloaded and loaded. I am thinking I have just ruined 100 pieces of brass. By the time I re-turn the necks, the neck thickness will be pretty thin. Is there a limit on how thin the necks can be? Or could I run them through the fl bushing die and maybe salvage them that way?

If this is brand new brass, don't play with it. Load it up with a suitable low level charge, head out to the range and shoot it. In other words, get it fireformed to your chamber. Once it has been through this process it should be about 95% formed to your rifle's chamber. I have found that neck and body diameter reach to within 0.0005" of chamber size as there is slight springback. The neck won't quite be all the way there yet. Don't know why but I have found that this is the case with every NEW piece of decent brass I have used. At this point you can neck size only, load it one more time and start the search for an accuracy node with the powder of your choice. This second firing will usually take it to fully fireformed, both in diameter and in shoulder to base length. Now it is ready for light shoulder bumping (0.002" for a bolt gun at most) or possible full length resizing if there is any sign of sticky bolt lift or hard extraction, light neck turning - never take off more than 0.002" if possible.

So, bottom line is to never turn NEW brass. Get it fireformed to your rifle first.

A lot of the latest shooters, using high quality brass such as Lapua, never neck turn, only full length body size (I personally use Redding) to get the body length and shoulder set correctly, neck size with only the Lee neck collet die, trim to length, and then reload.