Registered Skeet Shooters...Would you Attend?

[Neera]

Don't know how many registered skeet shooters frequent this forum but I'm curious about something.

IF....you are registered and something below an AAA/AA class shooter would you be more inclined...or less inclined to attend a shoot that was reserved for A class and down only? NO AA/AAA permitted in ANY gun in this one.

Just curious.

 

[bmcrae]

Boooooooooo!!!!

What about a concurrent open only to A-D/E shooters instead? This is somewhat common in the US (usually BCDE).

Would you get more shooters that would show up (that otherwise wouldn't) than AAA/AA shooters that you would chase away?

Really, the only difference between this style of shoot and a standard one would be the Ch/RU money. As I mentioned, you could make up for this with a concurrent, or a handicap (or combination there of).

I have personally done a lot of work trying to determine what shooters want in order increase attendance. I work on a lot of different styles of shoots. I've found that there really isn't a magic answer.

It really comes down to what you want to do with your shoot. Once you determine that, you can work out the details to accommodate.

Regardless of the direction you decide to go, I'd be happy to talk with you offline and offer my 2 cents.

Brad.

 

[skeeter1]

Why would you want to alienate some of the top shooters. While this idea to give A class shooters and lower the piece of mind that they may win a shoot, it would seem to be a hollow victory.
When I first started shooting the thing I really enjoyed was working my way up the ladder, getting closer to shooting with "the big guns". Even if I didn't win I allways watched how the AAA/AA shooters prepared and conducted themselves on the field.
I agree with bmcrae the way to go would be to have a concurrent event open only to those A class and lower although I would think it more realistic to have it B class and lower A class shooters don't get into A because they are mediocre shooters, I have been to shoots were B class shooters win top gun.

 

[Covey Ridge]

The one thing that I really like about registered skeet and trap is that anyone can enter and have their scores compaired against the best of the best that bother to attend. Sure I can see some club wanting to add to the numbers and encourage the beginners and the mediocre and the fairly good to attend, but I think a good shoot will be known for its reputation of being able to attract the top guns. Keep registered trap and skeet shoots the way they are and make it more attractive for the top guns to attend. The classes will always be there. If you do not want to attract the best you should he having non registered or fun shoots!

 

[Neera]

AH HA....I see I got a nibble or two. LOL

So.....let's try this on for size. Eliminate the mandatory purses that B-C-D-E class shooters don't have a hope in hell of winning but still have to pay into. You know....the gun champ and RU...and HOA and RU purses everyone pays into for the same AAA/AA shooters to win weekend after weekend.

ALL purses optional. AAA/AA shooters want a big fat purse to take home? Pony up the cash out of their own pockets.....as much as they want....build the OPTIONAL purses as high as they want...bet on themselves and have at each other.

"I have been to shoots were B class shooters win top gun."

Perhaps. But that sure doesn't happen often. I've been around the game over 30 years and can count on one hand the number of times I've seen that.

"While this idea to give A class shooters and lower the piece of mind that they may win a shoot, it would seem to be a hollow victory."

What seems hollow to me is a guy's head if he:

- Holds a .8975 4 gun average and pays $50.00+/100...a portion of which goes into the mandatory HOA purse...and he thinks he's got a hope in hell of knocking off the guy who holds a .9800 4 gun average. But if he wants to play...he MUST PAY into something he can't win.....or is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to win.

Taking home a purse which consists of money obtained largely from the lower class shooters also seems a little hollow to me. What do I prove as an AA shooter when I take money from the D class guys?

"I have personally done a lot of work trying to determine what shooters want in order increase attendance"

And did you hear any of this Brad:

There are people around getting fed up with paying $50+/100....getting only $7 or $8 of that returned to class....having to contribute to a mandatory GC or HOA purse they don't have a hope in hell of winning...while watching the same tiny hand full of folks going from club to club weekend after weekend and taking home all the cash and hardware.

Sure...those who want to rub shoulders with the top shooters....go right ahead...there's enough shoots around to do that. But there sure aren't many shoots around for a B or C class shooter to win a gun champ or HOA.

Don't want to discriminate against the top shooters? Fine...let them attend...and shoot for their optional purses.....the way the lower class shooters have to now in order to get any kind of HOA honors or purse. They have to pay into a mandatory HOA purse they can't win...then pay again..another $10-$15 into the optional Class HOA purse.

The big difference is that the top shooters only have to contribute to one HOA purse....if the lower class shooters want some HOA money...they have to contribute to 2 HOA purses. Right Brad?

Maybe there shouldn't be an HOA in the first place. And if there's going to be...maybe it should simply be an optional concurrent thing.

Maybe there should just be our 4 or 5 events.......and they should be handi capped? If the AAA shooter who shoots the 100 straight regularly...almost every weekend...wants some of that D class shooters money...then at least give that D class guy a chance to defend himself with a few handicap targets and give him an occasional chance to win that mandatory purse he's forced to pay into. Don't just force the D guy to pay whether he wants to or not.

Then perhaps we'd see a C or D class shooter win a "top gun" award a little more often than the same few winning it every weekend as things stand now.

Yup...we can do more optional concurrent things. We can have more "optional" purses. More "optional" handicap events. All at an additional cost of what....another $10.00 - $15.00 per "optional" event...on top of the $50+/100 we're already paying. Taking total entry costs to what? My entry fees at my last shoot were over $400...and I didn't hardly play any of the optional stuff available. There were others who paid alot more than I did. Now couple all of this with $40.00+ for a bag of lead....and $1.00+ for a liter of gas...and $100.00/night for a motel for a 3 day shoot. And people wonder why attendance is declining?????

Oh...and before anyone starts to think that I'm just a D class shooter who's whining..I'm not. I'm an AA/A shooter. One who's trying to figure a way to keep those B-C-D guys from deciding to go to cottage...or fishing for the weekend. The ones who are getting tired of putting out $500.00+ for a weekend of skeet shooting fun to watch the same guys go home with their money....while they go home to wait for their $33.00 cheque for their B2 or C 2 win in the 12 gauge.

I'm not talking about banning all AAA/AA shooters from all shoots.

I asked.....and I guess it was aimed at the lower class shooters...."would you be more inclined....or less inclined to attend a shoot without the AAA/AA shooters there? Or at the very least....if you didn't HAVE TO pay into a mandatory purse for the AAA guy to win.?

As for attracting the top shooters to a shoot.....if I'm running a shoot I personally would prefer to see 5 more C-D guys show up than 1 more AAA/AA guy. And I'm really not convinced that the AAA/AA guy being there is the reason for the C-D-E guys showing up.

OK boys...pile on and let's hear some discussion and liven things up a little. This has been the most boring forum since it was created that I've seen anywhere.

 

[bmcrae]

I have so much to say on this, but so little time (just headed out to the club now).

Help me out by giving me some background on what you are primarily trying to address.

Is it this;?

There are people around getting fed up with paying $50+/100....getting only $7 or $8 of that returned to class....having to contribute to a mandatory GC or HOA purse they don't have a hope in hell of winning...while watching the same tiny hand full of folks going from club to club weekend after weekend and taking home all the cash and hardware.

Yes I have definately heard this complaint, but not as often as you might think (more on that later).

As I said earlier, I haven't yet found a magic answer, but sometimes there are ways to address a few individual complaints as the ones above (I'd consider the one above to be two).

Brad.

 

[Covey Ridge]

How about all classes shoot for their own money and hoa etc just get hardware and a handshake, in addition to their class money.

 

[Neera]

Yup...that's a pretty big part of it Brad. And I've started hearing more and more of it. It may not be horribly widespread yet. But I'm sure hearing more of it now than I did 5 years ago.

You know....I think if you really ask around and quiz some of the people shooting...you'd find that a fair number don't even know how to read and fully decipher/understand a program. They don't even know where much of their entry fees are going and don't even realize that a portion of it is going to those top purses. All they know is that they're paying $50.00+/100 and $8.00 of that is being returned to class. And if they want to play the 50's options...it's going to cost them another $15.00. And if they want a shot at some sort of HOA money...it's going to cost them another $10 - $15 to play the "optional" class HOA.

Start explaining to them how that $50/100 mandatory fee is broken down (besides the NSSA and OSSA daily fees) and they find out that while they're in C or D class they are also contributing to purses for people that there's no way in hell they're going to beat and suddenly you start to hear....."HEY...I don't like that". "That's not fair". Ask around and I bet you hear more than one person say that.

I don't recall ever seeing anywhere in your programs Brad.....how much of your $50/100 is going to those mandatory purses. How come anybody running shoots and sending out programs NEVER publishes this in their programs for everyone to see? I recall ever seeing this info in a program only once...and that happened last year in fact. First time I've ever seen it after being around this game for 30+ years. Wonder why?

You're right Brad. There is no magic answer. But I don't think that offering more and more "optional" concurrent and handi-cap events....driving a shooter's costs to play even higher is necessarily the answer either. People are finding this game expensive enough already. I'm not sure offering them more and more things to spend more money on during a shoot weekend is going to make more people want to come out and shoot. Especially when so little is returned to them.

And I don't think I'm totally prepared to simply take a chance and travel somewhere in hopes that MAYBE there will be enough people there who will play those "optional" events to make it all worthwhile.

Most people have only so much recreational money available to them. Some take up this game....for a while...and then discover that it's simply not worth it. It's expensive...and there's very little return....unless you're one of the "top dogs". And after a few years of contributing to the mandatory purses for those "top dogs", some folks get fed up. All of us who have been around a while have seen many people come and go. They decide they can get more bang for their buck doing something else. And they disappear.

Most of us belong to pretty small clubs that I don't think can really afford to lose 1 or 2 of those lower class shooters because they're becoming disgruntled.

I just have to wonder sometimes how much longer this game of registered skeet can stay alive....especially in this country anyway.

Just out of curiosity Brad....what are the numbers looking like here in Ontario for registered shooters? They holding pretty steady? Growing? Declining?

Just curious.

IF....there's been any sort of decline...where's it been? At the AAA/AA levels....or in the lower classes?

I'd be kinda interested in seeing some sort of historical data. Who shoots the most registered targets? The AAA/AA shooters (top 10%) or the lower class shooters (bottom 90%)?

Who are we as a whole most interested in catering to...the top 10%? Or the bottom 90%? Is there some way to strike a satisfactory balance? Pretty tough to please everyone isn't it.

 

[Neera]

Problem with that Covey is that the "top dog" AAA shooters then start taking home less money than the "B" class shooters and that doesn't sit well with them. That's why there's mandatory purses for all shooters to pay into and feed those top dogs. For some odd reason it seems to be believed that the C & D class shooters some how owe those top shooters something...so they must therefore contribute to the mandatory "top dog" purse.

At any given shoot...the largest class on the scoreboard is more often than not "B" class. Sometimes "C" class.

The AAA shooters don't feel it's right for a B class shooter to take home more $$$ than the AAA/AA shooters.

So everyone has to build a pot for those "big dogs"...even though the vast majority don't have a snow ball's chance in hell of ever winning that mandatory purse.

I like playing some optional stuff now and then. I'm a bit of a gambler and kinda like betting on myself sometimes. BUT....let me decide where I want my money to go....don't simply decide for me that if I want to shoot registered targets "thou shalt pay into this like it or not".

 

[Covey Ridge]

Problem with that Covey is that the "top dog" AAA shooters then start taking home less money than the "B" class shooters and that doesn't sit well with them.

I know that it will not set well with them. They are used to being well fed. I do not think that the lower classes owe them anything, but I simply do not think having shoots where they are not allowed is the answer. Let it be their choice if they attend or not. Some of them might just shoot for prestige and average? There are lots of shoots that will accomodate them. For those who want to shoot for the big bucks let them go to where the big money is and not expect the lower classes to give them a larger chunk of the pie. I thought that this thread was started by the notion of having shoots where the top guns are not allowed? Now it seems about how the money is divided. Maybe those who are favored to win should have to anti up a larger portion? The options need to be more attactive to the lower classes. They already are more attractive to the top guns. Maybe top gun money should come from sponsorship funds instead of the lower classes?

 

[Covey Ridge]

If there were shoots limited to A and under and money was a factor, there may be some A shooters who would choose to stay below AA and make it even easier to get a big chunk of money. Then what? Make b the top class?

 

[Covey Ridge]

I asked.....and I guess it was aimed at the lower class shooters...."would you be more inclined....or less inclined to attend a shoot without the AAA/AA shooters there? Or at the very least....if you didn't HAVE TO pay into a mandatory purse for the AAA guy to win.?

My trouble with your very long post is that I did not read it all but I will answer this question. more or less inclined? I would prefer the better or best shooters there! I would also prefer not to pay into mandatory purse!

 

[beretta boy]

Was never in it for "the money" ..... ( kept my "day job" ! )
Registered targets, for me, was just a formalized method of
keeping track of MY OWN scores, to see how I was progressing
in the game.

Always thought the better the shooters that were there,
the more opportunity there was to learn & improve.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Was never in it for "the money" ..... ( kept my "day job" ! )
Registered targets, for me, was just a formalized method of
keeping track of MY OWN scores, to see how I was progressing
in the game.

Always thought the better the shooters that were there,
the more opportunity there was to learn & improve.

Just like the mastercard commercial, the best part of the sport is priceless. Of course you have to pay for those targets they throw and the recording process and others to show up to push you to your competative best. Good post beretta boy

 

[Neera]

"I thought that this thread was started by the notion of having shoots where the top guns are not allowed?"

Well....sort of I guess. An "invitational" type shoot I suppose for the lower class shooters just for a change once in a while where they're NOT paying into the mandatory purses for the top shooters. Like I said later....I don't want to ban all the top shooters from all the shoots.

"more or less inclined? I would prefer the better or best shooters there! I would also prefer not to pay into mandatory purse!"

That's fine....I can buy that too....at least do it sometimes...make those top purses optional. Make the mandatory contributions go into purses that stay in class....return more from a $50 entry fee than only $8.00 to class....return $12...or $15 to class for a change.

I like to bet on myself now and then. If I'm C class, I'd pay almost anything...within reason of course.....to play and take my chances against all other legitimate C class shooters. I'm happy to throw my "C" class money into the "C" class pot...an let the best "C" class shooter that day take it home.

But if I'm "C" class....I don't like having to continuously throw my money into a pot that's going to be taken home continually by a AAA shooter.

"If there were shoots limited to A and under and money was a factor, there may be some A shooters who would choose to stay below AA and make it even easier to get a big chunk of money. "

UH-OH...that sounds an awful lot like sand bagging. LOL LOL

Given our current reclassification system....they're not going to stay down there very long.

 

[bmcrae]

Holy smokes, where to even start.

I've spent quite literally hundreds of hours discussing/debating/brainstorming all of this. Not one single point that you bring up is new to me.

Let me start with saying that I'm impressed that you've taken the time to break a lot of this down. Many shooters have no idea all the work and planning that goes into hosting a shoot. There are hundreds upon hundreds of little details like the ones you've listed (and you've really just touched on a few of them).

Any of what follows is my 2 cents. Much of the time there is no right or wrong answer, but a matter of making a decision which will hopefully result in either benefiting a majority of the competitors, or the event itself.

I have found that most shooters don't attend shoots with the intent of winning. They are much more attracted to other aspects of tournament shooting. The whole social aspect is a major factor. People like traveling around and meeting new people, catching up with old friends and having a good time. This is really something to focus on when hosting a shoot. You want to make sure as many people are having a good time, by what ever means, as possible. The winning part of the shooting the event is often quite secondary. Often it is a matter of competing against themselves. They want to shoot above their average and climb up in classes. Shooting against the top dogs, and out shooting them, even if just on occasion can not be overlooked.

I'd need at least 2 hands to count the number of times B class shooters have won a gun, or a even a shoot (which happened last year btw) over the last 5 or 6 years. It doesn't happen often, but it is absolutely fantastic to see. It's even more fantastic when you are that shooter.

My biggest concern with a shoot that excludes AAA/AA shooters is this; you are going to alienate 10-15 shooters. Often these are the shooters who have attended your shoot for several consecutive years. They often travel with full squads. When 3 of the 5 shooters are either excluded, or made to feel unwelcome, the other 2 aren't going to participate either. I'd fear that you would loose 20-25 shooters in hopes of gaining 5. This doesn't even start to take into consideration how the rest of the shooting population would react to the top dogs being excluded.

Have a look at last year's scoreboards to get an idea of how many AA shooters that are there. You would run a serious risk by excluding this group. I believe that the number of AAA/AA shooters in Ontario is higher now that it has been for the 10 or so years I've been competing.


There are people around getting fed up with paying $50+/100....getting only $7 or $8 of that returned to class


I know of only 2 shoots in Ontario that are in this neighborhood. When a club puts together the above mentioned hundreds of variables, they have to come up with some equation that tries to balance what the club is going to make on the shoot versus what the shooter is willing to pay. This one is very difficult to address with out going through the shoot specifics (as such I'll hold off on this one, at least for now).

That said, when you are talking about the $50 range, I believe at least $10 should be going back to the class. This is not always possible.

The truth of the matter is that most shoots in Ontario (at least prior to this year) are less than the rates listed above.

So where does all the money come from anyway?

In larger shoots (where say 40 or more shooters are expected), it is fairly common to list prize money ahead of time. Gun champ gets X, Shoot champ gets Y, Z will be added to gun classes etc. The club goes somewhat out on a limb to guarantee a prize pool. If they don't get enough shooters, then fees collected may be less than money awarded. If enough shooters do compete, then they may be able to make some money.

I've found that it is usually smaller shoots that will break down the payouts by saying $x /shooter will be the HOA prize and $y /shooter will go to the RU. This keeps the costs fixed for the club and makes it somewhat less likely to take a loss (if you only get 15 shooters, you aren't on the hook for a $500 payout to champ when you've only collected $150)

I personally prefer to go with the first method to avoid the perception of this unbalanced equation.

It could be argued that the HOA payouts come from a mandatory purse that all shooters pay into. I could argue that the sponsorship money I go after is really what funds this. It is really the same thing for events like a dinner. You can say that shooters get a free dinner, but you could also argue that by paying to shoot, a portion of your fees go towards dinner.



Don't want to discriminate against the top shooters? Fine...let them attend...and shoot for their optional purses.....the way the lower class shooters have to now in order to get any kind of HOA honors or purse. They have to pay into a mandatory HOA purse they can't win...then pay again..another $10-$15 into the optional Class HOA purse.


I've attended shoots like this. There are dozens of shoot configurations you can consider. No added HOA or gun money. I've shot in events with 2 people in my class. There's times when a 99 just gets you a handshake because the guy who shot 100 is going to take your class money.

Now you bring up the whole mandatory purse issue. I've found that that is primarily a concern south of the border. It's not one that I've heard very often in Canada. That's absolutely a variable that shoot management can address. You really have to weigh that against some other potential issues though. When someone shoots well, either in their class, or overall, they want to see something for their efforts. Read that money or prizes. The removal of this incentive is one that may turn people away. This is another one of those balance situations where you'd have to decided which would attract more/detract fewer.


Maybe there should just be our 4 or 5 events.......and they should be handi capped? If the AAA shooter who shoots the 100 straight regularly...almost every weekend...wants some of that D class shooters money...then at least give that D class guy a chance to defend himself with a few handicap targets and give him an occasional chance to win that mandatory purse he's forced to pay into. Don't just force the D guy to pay whether he wants to or not.

I wouldn't be opposed to this. This is usually set up as some sort of concurrent event though as the NSSA does somewhat dictate that an event champ is the person with the highest score. If a club decides it wants to add money to the concurrent event rather than the main event....... One thing to be aware of with this, is that it may encourage sandbagging ( a whole new topic for another time)

Yup...we can do more optional concurrent things. We can have more "optional" purses. More "optional" handicap events. All at an additional cost of what...

You as a club have a lot of leeway to determine if it actually costs the shooter more or not. Have it included as part of the entry fee.

My entry fees at my last shoot were over $400...and I didn't hardly play any of the optional stuff available. There were others who paid alot more than I did. Now couple all of this with $40.00+ for a bag of lead....and $1.00+ for a liter of gas...and $100.00/night for a motel for a 3 day shoot. And people wonder why attendance is declining?????

I think Lead and Gas are currently the largest contributer to an attendance decline and this will hit us hard again this year. As for the fees, well ,each club has to decide how to run their shoot.


As for attracting the top shooters to a shoot.....if I'm running a shoot I personally would prefer to see 5 more C-D guys show up than 1 more AAA/AA guy. And I'm really not convinced that the AAA/AA guy being there is the reason for the C-D-E guys showing up.

When running a shoot, bottom line is very important. I'd rather have 5 more C-D shooters than just 1 AA as well. The trick is to find a way to encourage the 5 C-D shooters with out pissing off the existing AA shooters. No shoot that currently exists in Canada can afford to piss off any group/class of shooters.

OK, so you've narrowed down a particular area that you would like to address. I think that is an extremely good way to start, as you can more effectively proceed while focusing on this area. (more on addressing it later)


You know....I think if you really ask around and quiz some of the people shooting...you'd find that a fair number don't even know how to read and fully decipher/understand a program. They don't even know where much of their entry fees are going and don't even realize that a portion of it is going to those top purses. All they know is that they're paying $50.00+/100 and $8.00 of that is being returned to class. And if they want to play the 50's options...it's going to cost them another $15.00. And if they want a shot at some sort of HOA money...it's going to cost them another $10 - $15 to play the "optional" class HOA.

Some people read, some people don't. I like a more simplistic approach as there is less chance for confusion. One area to focus on is new shooters. They come out and are totally confused as to what exactly means what. I try and take the time to explain what each event means, and I'll usually guide them into a less expensive route into the shoot (they probably don't need to play optional purse and options until they are shooting better scores). You particularly don't want to leave a bad taste in the mouth of new shooters because you want to get them hooked, and have them come back.


I don't recall ever seeing anywhere in your programs Brad.....how much of your $50/100 is going to those mandatory purses. How come anybody running shoots and sending out programs NEVER publishes this in their programs for everyone to see? I recall ever seeing this info in a program only once...and that happened last year in fact. First time I've ever seen it after being around this game for 30+ years. Wonder why?

I'll use my "Capital of Canada" shoot as a reference. The last few years I've charged $50/100. This includes NSSA fees of $3USD and OSSA fees of $1CAD. $10 is returned to class purse. This leaves me with $36/100 to pay for targets, referees, trap boys, medals, meal, water on the fields, etc. To guess I'd say targets would run $8/100, referees at $7/100. This leaves about $21/100 for the rest. As I mention above, added money for CH/RU and classes is fixed ahead of time. Somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 (this includes money added into the classes) is added by the club. This comes from some sponsorship. We don't charge for HOA, so that is included. From there, depending on how you were to do your accounting, you could claim that $0 is being funded from the lower classes to the higher classes, to saying that if $1500 in added is divided equally by 250 guns and getting a figure of $6/100.

As I mentioned though, the added money is fixed for this shoot. It's the same if we have 20 shooters or if we have 75. In my opinion it is indeed the club that funds it.

I have seen shoots in Ontario that specify how the HOA and Gun pool for Champ will be determined. I have heard that this causes more grief and questions that you bring up above.


And I don't think I'm totally prepared to simply take a chance and travel somewhere in hopes that MAYBE there will be enough people there who will play those "optional" events to make it all worthwhile.

Well, what exactly is worthwhile? I've had a fair amount of success with my shooting the last several years. Despite this, not once have I finished a weekend having won more money than I paid to be there. For me, I enjoy traveling shoot to shoot, seeing the people, shooting for fun, and having a good time. I know it is going to cost me a lot of money to do it. I do it because I enjoy it. If I like your shoot, I will probably come back. Make me feel welcome. Show me a good time. Make me feel good about dropping several hundred dollars to attend your event. There is no one in Canada making money shooting skeet. Some shooters end up subsidizing their season by a few thousand, but this is the exception.

Most of us belong to pretty small clubs that I don't think can really afford to lose 1 or 2 of those lower class shooters because they're becoming disgruntled.

I just have to wonder sometimes how much longer this game of registered skeet can stay alive....especially in this country anyway.

Just out of curiosity Brad....what are the numbers looking like here in Ontario for registered shooters? They holding pretty steady? Growing? Declining?

Just curious.

IF....there's been any sort of decline...where's it been? At the AAA/AA levels....or in the lower classes?

I'd be kinda interested in seeing some sort of historical data. Who shoots the most registered targets? The AAA/AA shooters (top 10%) or the lower class shooters (bottom 90%)?

Who are we as a whole most interested in catering to...the top 10%? Or the bottom 90%? Is there some way to strike a satisfactory balance? Pretty tough to please everyone isn't it.



All good points here. Yes, absolutely, you need as many shooters as possible to attend your shoot, so that you can at very least continue to host your event and provide this invaluable service to the shooting community. If we don't have any more shoots to go to, we will be dead in the water. I spend hundreds of hours a year helping with shoots to provide a service to the shooting community. Some days I wonder why. A few times a year I need to remind myself that I am helping the greater cause, and the time I put in really is appreciated.

How long? Good question. All I can say is that I'm working my ass off to help make sure it is as long as possible.

I don't have the current numbers handy (they do come out at the OSSA AGM, you should attend!). I'll track these down and see if I can't get you some real information.

If I had to guess, I'd say we are on a slight decline. I'd further say the primary reason has been increases in the cost of gas and lead that we've seen the last few years.

To say in which class there has been a decline would be extremely difficult due to the fact people climb in and out of these classes regularly. We haven't granulated our data down to the class volume level.

We are most interested in catering to the entire skeet population. By definition, it is a competition, where the best shooters win. That is the game we play. If it seems like it is the top 10% that is being catered to, that is quite unfortunate. The the fact is that events are open to, and provided as a service to all shooters regardless of class.

To please everyone, you'd have to have an event that didn't cost anything to enter, you'd provide ammo, and everyone would come out winning money. Clearly this is totally impractical. The first thing you have to do is keep your clubs that host the shoots. They provide the service and we have to make sure that they are in a position to continue doing so. From there, you have to find the magic formula to draw as many shooters as possible while keeping them happy. I think it would be easier to first come up with a method to establish world peace.


The AAA shooters don't feel it's right for a B class shooter to take home more $$$ than the AAA/AA shooters.

Well, don't put this on the AAA shooters. In reality they aren't the ones running the shoot. The point is however, why would an event winner, who shoots the top score, receive less prize money than someone who won only a class. The thinking being that the better shooter should get the bigger prize. It is the case very often that champ money will be guaranteed to be X higher than the highest class. This isn't the shooters making this demand. At the end of the day, this is still a shooting contest.

More to follow undoubtedly. You've brought up a pretty broad spectrum of issues and I didn't get to go as in depth into some of them as I would have liked.


Brad.

 

[Neera]

"Was never in it for "the money" ..... ( kept my "day job" ! )"

Point well taken there Beretta Boy. That holds pretty much true for most if not all of us. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they were in it for the money.

I got into it because I like to shoot. And I like to compete once in a while. But I do not like to constantly have to donate to something I can't win. And that's precisely what the lower class shooters are expected to do. Or have I been misguided here into thinking that way and that in fact does not happen?

So after a $500+ weekend they get back $12.00 or $20.00 or $30.00 and a participant pin for their C2 or D2. I think some begin to wonder "why"? Especially if they have a wife and kids and the wife is looking at the cheque that comes in the mail 2 weeks later and is less than impressed. And she's had to sit around ANOTHER gun club for a whole weekend bored to tears. LOL

I guess the bottom line is...if you can't afford to pay...then don't play.

But the game is full of people who want to play and I'm searching for ideas on how to:

a. perhaps make it a little more affordable for all who want to play
b. make it a little more attractive to those lower class shooters so they'll maybe stick around the game longer

Sure there are some who will stick it out and gradually work their way up the classification scale. But there are also others who don't and after a few years they pack it in and start spending more time at the cottage. How do we retain those guys?

I think Texas probably has more registered shooters than all of Canada...and every town down there it seems has another gun club. If they lose 1 or 2 shooters here and there...it's no where near as big a deal as to us up here. Unfortunately we don't have that luxury up here and we need to keep all the shooters we can. The question is how? Making our shoots more attractive and desirable to attend FOR ALL CLASSES sounds like a good place to start.

 

[Neera]

Welcome back Brad....hope you had a good day at the Club.

We must have been typing here at the same time. Let me digest all you've said....and thanks BTW. I know you care about the game and work hard at it.

Must sound like I'm an AA/A shooter who wants to cut my nose off to spite my face by giving more money back to the lower class shooters and not having mandatory purses.

I just like.....for now anyway.....the idea of any purses other than class money being optional. Pay & play if you want....don't if you dont want. If GC and HOA and runners up purses all come from "added" money....donations...sponsorship and not out of the pockets of C-D-E shooters then I don't have a problem.

BTW...how in hell do you grab something someone has said here and insert it as a quote??????? Every time I try I get their whole post captured.

 

[bmcrae]

Help me out by giving me some background on what you are primarily trying to address.

Is it this;?

There are people around getting fed up with paying $50+/100....getting only $7 or $8 of that returned to class....having to contribute to a mandatory GC or HOA purse they don't have a hope in hell of winning...while watching the same tiny hand full of folks going from club to club weekend after weekend and taking home all the cash and hardware.

Yup...that's a pretty big part of it Brad. And I've started hearing more and more of it.

OK, take the biggest problem you have and start there.
My interpretation goes something like this.

In order of importance;

1) People think $50+/100 plus fees is excessive.
2) People think that returning $7 to $8 to class is not enough
3) People don't like contributing when they can't win

You, as shoot management, have the ability to control the first two points. Revisit your fee structure. Meet with your committee and put all your cards on the table. Do something similar to what I did in my previous post.

For every 100 birds, it costs you;
$a for Targets
$b for Referees
$c for Dinner
$d for Administration
$e for Prizes
$f for other


Look real deep and ensure you are getting your all your costs on the table.

You will have to make some assumptions (like number of shooters). Use historical data when possible to plug in these values. This should give you an idea of your real costs to put 100 birds in the air. This gives you an idea of the difference in what you are charging versus what it is costing you. From there, determine if you can adjust your price. From there also determine if there is room to increase returned money. As I've mentioned earlier, when paying $50+/100, shooters want to see $10 returned. Make sure that you are seeing a profit. For the 100s of hours of volunteer work that go into hosting a shoot, you want the club to get some benefit from this (in my experience it is about $1/hour of volunteer labour). Also, you never know when outside influences will cost you shooters (gas and lead). It is extremely important that you are at very least able to break even in such a circumstance.

Now, to point 3. I have found that within Canada, this is not a major factor (that is not to say it doesn't happen). The majority of Canadian shooters are either going to support your shoot, or they won't. For those who don't, there is very little that you can do to change their mind. For those who do, they are going to pay the high prices, and shoot the bad targets, and put up with the slow referees. They aren't going to be happy with it, and you do run the risk of running them off, but the majority will keep coming back. They love the sport. I don't really like to share this opinion as I find it disrespectful to those shooters. Also as with anything else, if you continually fail to address your customers needs and concerns, you will chase away even your most loyal customers.

So right now some of your customers are expressing a concern. Identify the primary factors leading to that concern and focus on them. You don't have to reinvent your shoot (unless you really want to). You can't get caught up in trying to address EVERY concern either. Start with a few, ideally the most important ones.

Talk to your shooters during the shoot. Ask what is working well and what may not be. Be prepared to take it all with a grain of salt, because you could charge $10/100 and someone will still tell you it's too expensive.

Talk to other people who run shoots. See what they are doing to address the same concerns you are encountering. Times are tough all over, you'll probably find that others are seeing the exact same issues you are. They may have some ideas as to what is working.

Brad.

 

[Neera]

My interpretation goes something like this.

In order of importance;

1) People think $50+/100 plus fees is excessive.
2) People think that returning $7 to $8 to class is not enough
3) People don't like contributing when they can't win

Pretty fair interpretation.

And all issues for shoot managements to contemplate I guess.

None of us is likely to get terribly rich off the game. With the ever increasing costs of everything though....anyone who willingly puts out $500+ for a weekend of shooting over and over and says they don't really care if they get anything back or not makes me wonder if they're being totally truthful. Unless they've got more money alreaady than they know what to do with. LOL Generally though I think most would prefer to get some return on their investment.

Just seems to me that continually paying high prices and getting back very little if anything will eventually take its toll on some and we run the risk of losing them. I think after a time some begin to wonder if its all worth it. For some it's not and they fade away.

Three times in my life I've got back more than I spent to play (not counting ammo costs). And I was pretty pleased. Conversely I got back a cheque for $8.00 once for my efforts. Never been totally skunked yet though. LOL

If there's any way at all to somehow reduce the cost and/or increase the return, an effort needs to be made to do so. If things stay the way they are, then it's simply a matter of individual choice I guess as to whether it's worth it or not to continue playing. 'shrug'

And time will tell how many stay...and how many fade away I guess.

Now, to point 3. I have found that within Canada, this is not a major factor (that is not to say it doesn't happen).

As I mentioned before....if I'm mistaken in this and money is not coming mandatorily (is that a good word?) from the low class shooters and into the top shooters purses...then I don't have a problem. And nor should they. And if they think it's happening when it in fact isn't, I'll be sure to let them know.