Reloading 308 for the M14

lowgman

lowgman

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I've been only reloading handgun ammo for the past little while, and just started on reloading 308 for my Norc M14. I've been doing lots of research and there seems to be lots of mixed information about reloading for these rifles. The thought of slamfires freaks the hell outta me, so I'm trying to reload properly and be safe :)

Can anyone offer first hand experience and answers to the following questions?

[1] My understanding is that the M14 is really hard on brass; from its slightly oversized chambers, to the whole chambering and ejection process... it really beats on the brass. Does this mean that I can only get a few reloads from commercial 308 brass? How many times are you guys reloading 308 brass when fired in an M14?

[2] Small base dies - I went out and purchased a set of small base dies and began resizing once fired (from a bolt gun) 308 brass. Am I further reducing the number of times I can reload commercial 308 brass with these dies? Small base dies size the case down to minimum specs for 308, which means I'm working the brass harder than a neck sizer/full length sizer would.

[3] Primer pockets - Some people say I should use a primer pocket uniformer; is this neccessary? I've primed about 50pcs after cleaning the pockets out with a lee primer pocket cleaner and I've seated them as deep as possible.

[4] CCI Primers - I bought the CCI #200 primers, has anyone had any experience with slamfires with these primers? I know I should stay away from Federal, but some are saying I NEED CCI #34 nato primers with the harder cup? Does anyone have any first hand experience with commercial primers with the M14?

With these questions in mind, I plan to load with the following:

Once-fired Federal 308 brass (from a bolt gun)
150gr flat point FMJ bullets
40-41gr IMR 4895 starting load
CCI #200 large rifle primers

What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance!
 
I can only answer 1 of these questions:

#3) I would think you only need to use a pocket uniformer/reamer on military brass. If you have a pocket uniformer it's no big deal to give it a turn along with a flash hole uniformer, I do it simply for consistancy but I would say it is not required on factory brass.
 
the primer thing is a MYTH- i've been using standard primers for ages- just use magnums because i'm using BALL( ww748) powder- one goes with the other- depends on your load-standard dies too-
 
As a rule I don't shoot gas guns, but I'll see if I can help out.

1) Small base dies will limit the number of reloads you get due to over working the brass. You could anneal your brass, but if you are shooting a large volume of ammo, this would be a time consuming step, and would have to be repeated every other firing. Just get used to the idea that you aren't going to get much more than 5 reloads. I would be inclined to reload with regular dies first to see if you really need the small base dies. A magazine full will tell the story. When you inspect your brass, be as critical as possible and cull anything that looks like it could fail.

2) Usually primer pock uniforming is something reserved for the accuracy nut, but I think that in the case of the gas gun shooter it is a valuable way to ensure against high primers.

3) If military primers are available why not use them? There is a lot of slamming and banging going on when your rifle cycles.

4) According to the Sierra manual your load falls into the mid loading range, and should produce good results. If you experience cycling problems with this load you should be able to heat it up to a maximum of 43.5 grs, although this maximum should be approached cautiously. I suspect you know that slow burning propellants (slower than 4064) are a bad idea for these rifles.
 
Well I shoot lead out of my Norc M 14 using Lyman 311291 bullets so I maybe getting more reloads out of my brass than you might.

So far I have loaded cases over five times with no sings of case degredation yet.

I use Lee dies and fully resize all cases. I use regular Winchester primers or whatever is available with no ill effect. I tend to agree with previous poster about the myth.

If you are using commercial brass there should be no need to swage out your primer pockets.

I do trim my brass. I also attach the RCBS primer pocket cleaner to my variable drill and clean out the primer pockets.Just a touch is all that is necessary and I can do quite a batch in little time.

There is a sticky on the Cast Bullet Forum regarding testing of Cast Bullet loads for the M14/M1A1 and also avery good article posted on reloading for military rifles. You might get some useful information out of both threads.


Take Care

Bob
 
There seems to be some confusion between primer pocket uniforming and removing the crimp from military cases through the use of a swage or cutter. When we uniform the primer pocket, the pocket is essentially reshaped. It is cut slightly deeper with a flat bottom, so the primer has even bearing across the bottom of the pocket. Should you perform this step your primer is sure to sit .002" below the case head.

One would expect cases used in cast bullet loads to out last cases loaded with full powered jacketed bullet loads, especially when a small base die is used for full length resizing.
 
1. I've found out of the military rifles I've reloaded for the M305 is the easiest on the brass. I use IVI brass and some commercial stuff. The IVI is on it's 7th reload with no issues and the Winchester brass is on it's third or fourth. Keep in mind that the first few

2. I have no experience with small base dies. I doubt you'll need them over a standard set.

After talking with a pretty well experienced member here, who probably doesn't want his name mentioned becuase of the flaming I'll probalby get for this, I've been just neck sizing my brass. I've shot nearly a thousand rounds this way and never had a problem with the bolt not locking up or remaining out of battery. This may be why my brass is lasting so long.

3. If you shoot military brass with crimped in primers you need to remove the crimp with a swaging tool otherwise you'll find the new primers are difficult to insert into the brass. Other than that you really don't need to uniform the primer pockets.

4. I use cci 200 primers in my loads. They will work fine.
 
Everything I've read suggests that neck sizing is not recommended for pump or semi actions.. Can anyone shed some light as to why? I am new to this, so excuse my ignorance if the answer seems self evident.

I have a 270 win in a rem 7600 I was considering using neck sizing dies only, but now I am not too sure?
 
yea,only the bolt has the camming action neccesary to chamber a neck-sized round- the other actions do not- i've always taken that as bible , never tried it- besides, most of your dies are full length anyway, and i don't have any bolts-all semi's and levers
 
THe m14's firing pin is not spring loaded but rather free floating. If a case doesn't chamber propery you run the risk of the gun firing out of battery as the firing pin moves forward by inertia and setting off the primer, True of most semi-auto military rifles. You can get away with it and you may never have the experience. Only takes once though ....and you only get two eyes. By full length resizing you eliminate or at least almost eliminate this possibility.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
THe m14's firing pin is not spring loaded but rather free floating. If a case doesn't chamber propery you run the risk of the gun firing out of battery as the firing pin moves forward by inertia and setting off the primer, True of most semi-auto military rifles. You can get away with it and you may never have the experience. Only takes once though ....and you only get two eyes. By full length resizing you eliminate or at least almost eliminate this possibility.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

How would that apply to say a Marlin lever action or Remmy 7600 pump?
 
Don't use slow burning rates, with 4064 being the slowest useable.
Small base dies are not necessary.
Any primers are OK.
Federal brass is soft.
Military brass is hard
 
I'm using fed and win brass, RCBS 308 win FL dies, WLR primers. My M14 likes 42gr RL 15 and hornady 168gr Amax. I've loaded some fo my brass 4 times and when checked it is still safe to load.
 
If you check on the NRA webpage there are only a few, read that as three or four powders, that are listed as appropiate for the M-14. M1 Garand rifles.
If you use slower burning powders you run the risk of way too much gas at the port and a bent op rod in the case of a Garand and a really buggered up gas system in the case of an M-14. Primers.... if you have one that is set a wee bit too high, you could very well have an out of battery firing, thats at least 55,000 lbs of preasure in your face!!!! Seat primers to the bottom of the primer pocket, thats why you clean and uniform the primer pocket. A primer should actually be seated slightly below the level of the case head when it is seated properly. 7.62 NATO and .308 winchester are interchangable but not identical. Have you had the headspace checked on your rifle? The M305's have what I call a very generous headspace usually able to swallow up a 7.62 NATO no go gauge quite easliy. That is way too much for .308 Winchester. I've never thought of neck sizing for a semi, especially for the M-14. They have such little primary extraction power I'm supprized it works. I'm also a bit concerned about slam fires with brass not fully sized. That is a very real possibility and I would not recomend the practice.
Unless you have had your rifle accurised, you are really spending a lot more on bullets that I would. The 168 BTHP Sierra Match bullet (# 2200 I think) has been a standard match bullet for both the M-14 and the M1 Garand for many years, but, to use it in an off the rack rifle is a real waste on money. Try loading with bulk 150 gr FMJ's untill you get the work done to the rifle. I assume of course that you have not had the work done already, if you have than the 168gr BTHP Match is the way to go. I've also tried the Hornady offering in that weight with some very good success. How can you go wrong with a bullet from a guy who said "An inaccurate bullet is like an unfaithfull wife or a leaky boat, you can't trust any of them!" (Joyce Hornady) Gotta love that!

Good shooting, take care,

Scott
 
ryanloco

My comments were directed at the M 14 and other autos where the firing pin is not constrained by a spring ie free floating and as others have posted sets up the potential for slam fires - not a good thing.

The lever and pump guns lack the camming action of a bolt gun and I would assume a unsized (Neck sized only case) shot from a gun with a larger chamber than that being used MIGHT set up a jam at the worst possible momemnt.

I only neck size my .30-30 lever gun using cases shot from my gun and haven't had any problems. If I were to use the gun deer hunting I would use cases that were fully re-sized just to remove that remote possible problem. Kind of a Murphy's Law thing.

Take Care

Bob
 
"...neck sizing is not..." No neck sizing for any semi-auto and it applies to pump guns and lever actions too. It has to do with feeding and how the cartridge 'seats' in the chamber. Like t-star says a bolt action provides more leverage.
1. The M305 and a real semi'd M14 is no harder on brass than any other semi-auto. You might and likely will get some case mouth dents, but that isn't a big deal. Case mouth dents will come out with resizing or use needle nosed pliers as a reamer to get it close. Case life is entirely dependent on how hot the load is. Hot loads reduce case life. Be they commercial brass or not.
2. You don't really need SB dies. They'll do though. However, you must FL resize every time for any semi-auto. SB dies do that. No necking sizing for a semi-auto. If you're using the same brass in any two rifles with like chambering, you must FL resize when loading for each. Even two identical, consecutively serial numbered rifles will have slightly different chambers. You'll have feeding issues if you don't.
3. No, but it doesn't hurt. Like Boomer says, uniforming the pocket isn't the same thing as removing the primer pocket crimp on milsurp brass. Commercial brass doesn't have this. Milsurp brass is a bit thicker too. Using it requires the powder charge to be reduced by 10% and working up.
4. CCI #34 primers are a marketing gimmick. They're just magnum large rifle primers. You don't need them. Magnum primers burn a bit hotter for a bit longer and are made to light hard to ingnite powders and for cold weather shooting. Otherwise, they're just more expensive. Regular large rifle primers, like your CCI 200's, are fine.
Slamfires are caused by poorly loaded ammo. Usually high primers. The rifle has nothing to do with it.
"...150gr flat point FMJ bullets..." Flat based perhaps? Your load will do, but you'll find the .308 loves 165 grain hunting bullets or 168 and 175 grain match bullets with IMR4064. IMR4064 is more consistently accurate.
 
I should add that although I do neck size for my M14S I'm also not just blasting away with it.

I check each round for the bolt being in battery before pulling the trigger. I've shot quite a bit of rounds this way without one round sticking out of battery. Accuracy has increased quite a bit as well.

It's obviously not for everyone but I've had no troubles with neck sizing my M14.

Your mileage may vary.
 
1. Measure your headspace and OAL to lands. Determine the best OAL by making a couple of dummies and cycle
them manually from the magazine.
2. Full size 0.002" below the actual headspace.
3. Load minimum powder for 150gr bullet, seat primers below the base.
4. Seat bullets according to OAL in step 1

Don't worry about the brass, Winchester will do once you load
for YOUR rifle as per above.

If it cycles properly with load in step 3. STOP don't push it.
If it does not cycle properly, increase load in step 3 and try again
until you reach the load that cycles ok.

M14 is not to experiment with loads.
Make sure there are no grease inside the bolt or on the firing pin;
it should float smoothly.
 
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