Reloading BP without dies!?

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I've seen from multiple online sources that at least SOME black powder cartridges don't require ANY dies whatsoever. I've seen this in practice on a YouTube video about .577 Snider, and mentioned in a forum. And I seen it at least twice in forums about 577-450 martini.

My question is:
Is this true?
If it is true, what force in holding the bullet in?
I think someone said it was the lube, but what if you wanted to use paper patch?

If it is true it would save so much money and would make these rifles that I'm interested in something that I can actually afford to get into.
 
Some of the bpcr I load the bullets are a slip fit in the cases. They do fall out if not kept upright. Works well for target shooting but wouldn't be great for hunting or action shooting.

Depending on the dimensions of your particular chamer or bullets you might be able to neck size or taper crimp with 45-70 dies. Much can be done by thinking outside the normal reloading processes.
 
577-.450 definitely requires reloading dies and a press. Loading the .577 Snider does not require dies after the correct cases are fire-formed to your chamber. The bullet is held in the case by friction with paper patch or the tackiness of lube used on a greaser. You do not need a crimp as the Snider is a single shot and has no mechanical feed system. Not many people paper patch for the Snider, it's just not necessary with most bore and throat dimensions. You can get quality .600 grease groove bullet molds now that'll shoot well in most rifles and will fit fireformed cases.
 
This has nothing to do with Black Powder, nor "Black Powder Cartridges" - a meaningless term that supposedly refers to cartridges that were designed before smokeless powder existed, e.g. the 45-70.

What is does refer to are cartridges that shoot at very low pressure, be it with black powder or smokeless. At these low pressures, the neck is expanded very little on each firing, allowing multiple reloads without re-sizing. However the cartridge will eventually become too loose and will need to be at least neck-sized in my experience, so it doesn't eliminate the need for dies.

I've done this several times with several different cartridges (e.g. .577 Snider, 45-70, 43 Mauser) always in my case with round balls. After an initial sizing, I could usually reload 4-5 times by simply pressing the lubed round ball back into the cartridge. I could have done that with bullets, I just never tried, and would have probably applied a light crimp just so that it couldn't fall out during handling.
 
vagrantviking said:
Some of the bpcr I load the bullets are a slip fit in the cases. They do fall out if not kept upright. Works well for target shooting but wouldn't be great for hunting or action shooting.

Depending on the dimensions of your particular chamer or bullets you might be able to neck size or taper crimp with 45-70 dies. Much can be done by thinking outside the normal reloading processes.
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff to think about, if you seen the prices of 577 and 577-450 dies new, im sure you'd understand why I'm trying to figure it out like this
 
BlackPowderBurner said:
577-.450 definitely requires reloading dies and a press. Loading the .577 Snider does not require dies after the correct cases are fire-formed to your chamber. The bullet is held in the case by friction with paper patch or the tackiness of lube used on a greaser. You do not need a crimp as the Snider is a single shot and has no mechanical feed system. Not many people paper patch for the Snider, it's just not necessary with most bore and throat dimensions. You can get quality .600 grease groove bullet molds now that'll shoot well in most rifles and will fit fireformed cases.
Click to expand...

Oh, any particular reason why the 577-450 needs dies?

And Im wondering just how well it holds on, because it's not impossible that I'd wind up taking it hunting.
 
You can also order some 24 gauge shotgun hulls and then add your bullet and powder and you're off to the races, no dies required.
 
Andy said:
This has nothing to do with Black Powder, nor "Black Powder Cartridges" - a meaningless term that supposedly refers to cartridges that were designed before smokeless powder existed, e.g. the 45-70.

What is does refer to are cartridges that shoot at very low pressure, be it with black powder or smokeless. At these low pressures, the neck is expanded very little on each firing, allowing multiple reloads without re-sizing. However the cartridge will eventually become too loose and will need to be at least neck-sized in my experience, so it doesn't eliminate the need for dies.

I've done this several times with several different cartridges (e.g. .577 Snider, 45-70, 43 Mauser) always in my case with round balls. After an initial sizing, I could usually reload 4-5 times by simply pressing the lubed round ball back into the cartridge. I could have done that with bullets, I just never tried, and would have probably applied a light crimp just so that it couldn't fall out during handling.
Click to expand...

I suppose you got a point there, I only heard it in reference to black powder cartridges, and seeing how I'm asking about black powder cartridges I figured this would be where to ask.

So hypothetically, I'd only need a neck sizing die and a crimping die?
 
spoc said:
You can also order some 24 gauge shotgun hulls and then add your bullet and powder and you're off to the races, no dies required.
Click to expand...

I seen that, seem to work well for the 577, but needs quite a bit of shaping for 577-450, if I wind up with the Snider that's probably what I'll do.
 
In some of my match rifles I use zero neck tension so the cases never see a die. On my .40-65 silhouette rifle, I've shot the same cases for quite a few years and other than the initial case forming from .45-70 they've never seen a die, not even a neck sizer. With black powder generally the bullet sits on top of the powder column so it can't get pushed deeper into the case. This allows you to use zero neck tension.

Most of my match rifles can be shot this way. Generally if the chamber is not sloppy and the bullet fits the case with no slop case the gun will shoot well.

There is another technique called breech seating that also allows you to not use dies :). It's not for most folks, but I have some cases that have been shot 200 times that have never seen a die.

Chris.
 
There must be half a gazillion Sniders left in Canada - two of them are here in UK now. Rob Enfield of britishmuzzleloading on Youtube will show you the how-to with Snider cartridges, aided by the fact that we have Mr Snider Reloading hisself located in Spokane WA. Trading as X-Ring Sevices, Martyn Robinson makes and sells a couple of Snider bullet moulds - both in .600". He also sells converted 24 gauge brass shotgun cases made by MagTech, into which his bullets are a neat fit, held, as mentioned above, by the lubricant - see Rob's 'Reloading for the Snider Pt 2'. Meanwhile, here in UK, I have almost hundred Bertram Brass [Australia], now around CAN$10 each, and the defunct NDFS - North Devon Firearms Services - machined from bar - almost 35 years old, now.

Lee's dies set, even though they are pretty cheap, are still a lot more than .45-70, and also require a large-thread press...more expense. I've never used, or needed, either.
 
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Personally, I shoot a few Sniders so have found it useful to own the Lee die set. They also allow you to form your own Snider brass from the raw 24g shells if you don't want to buy preformed ones. And, not surprisingly, fireformed brass from one Snider won't always chamber in another rifle. I've found the 0.60" bullets to be too loose in some fireformed brass and snug enough in others to require a bit of flaring. I've played with using a bit of neck sizing to hold the bullet in place but my best accuracy has been with the bullet held by nothing more than solidified lube. When I use pure beeswax it holds them in fairly well. And on the lube front, be aware that your rifle may or may not shoot well with only soft lube in the grease grooves. Among the group I shoot with, almost everyone dips their bullet nose in a super soft "lube" prior to shooting. Without that your group with .60's may disappoint. Needless to say, this isn't terribly practical for hunting and is totally inaccurate historically.
The most historically accurate Snider cartridges you can build use Lee .575" minies and absolutely require the dies. For someone used to reloading modern cartridges this is a pretty easy way to get started. The bullet is held snugly in place by neck tension and if you use pure beeswax for lube (as with the original Boxer ammo) my results suggest you'll never need to add supplemental lube. I found the bore looked the same after 20 shots as it did after three. With minie bullets the Snider was noted for maintaining accuracy after considerably more than 100 rounds- unusual for BP cartridge rifles at the time. With effort you can get good results from the minies but most gravitate to the .60's almost immediately.
Also note that if you purchase pre-formed brass from X-Ring you will need to find a way to squeeze .575 minies in for fireforming or, perhaps, use round balls after flaring the case a bit. I did all my fireforming with the minies using a full 70 grn load and was able to see results on target with that powder expenditure.

milsurpo
 
straight walled cartridges are easy to load once fire formed to the chamber.I am making up cases right now for a 40/90 Ballard from brass of 9.3x74R with a Lyman "M" die with a custom made expander plug. I will be dropping 2fg Goex charge ,wad then hand seating a saeco bullet for first firing. The cases were prepped with annealing each case then open up the neck to take the 40 cal bullet.
 
fingers284 said:
You can sometimes use the base opening of other dies for other modern calibers to slightly adjust a case mouth to fit a particular bullet or crimp .
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I was just coming to say this. I have done it lots of times over the years. When I have dies that doesn't match any rifle I have any more I keep them as I never know what rounds ill be loading for next that need to me neck size them or put a slight crimp on something.
 
Lots of references to the Buffalo Hunters simply lubing their cast bullets and pressing them home by thumb pressure in the case mouth.

With no ammo rattling around in a magazine under recoil, there was no worry about the bullets moving about from same.

Most of the reloading tools of that time were little more than a hand press, not near as powerful as the modern lever operated units.
 
gunlaker said:
In some of my match rifles I use zero neck tension so the cases never see a die. On my .40-65 silhouette rifle, I've shot the same cases for quite a few years and other than the initial case forming from .45-70 they've never seen a die, not even a neck sizer. With black powder generally the bullet sits on top of the powder column so it can't get pushed deeper into the case. This allows you to use zero neck tension.

Most of my match rifles can be shot this way. Generally if the chamber is not sloppy and the bullet fits the case with no slop case the gun will shoot well.

There is another technique called breech seating that also allows you to not use dies :). It's not for most folks, but I have some cases that have been shot 200 times that have never seen a die.

Chris.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately I wouldn't be exclusively shooting at ranges and whatnot. its not uncommon for me to decide to pick my biggest, most unwieldy gun and just go "Yep, going for a hike, this is what I want to hunt with" so the zero neck tension thing might not work for me.

I see what your saying, but thats not something I can know without buying the gun lol.

I had to look into breech seating, doesn't seem like my cup of tea
 
tacfoley said:
There must be half a gazillion Sniders left in Canada - two of them are here in UK now. Rob Enfield of britishmuzzleloading on Youtube will show you the how-to with Snider cartridges, aided by the fact that we have Mr Snider Reloading hisself located in Spokane WA. Trading as X-Ring Sevices, Martyn Robonson makes and sells a couple of Snider bullet moulds - both in .600". He also sells converted 24 gauge brass shotgun cases made by MagTech, into which his bullets are a neat fit, held, as mentioned above, by the lubricant - see Rob's 'Reloading for the Snider Pt 2'. Meanwhile, here in UK, I have almost hundred Bertram Brass [Australia], now around CAN$10 each, and the defunct NDFS - North Devon Firearms Services - machined from bar - almost 35 years old, now.

Lee's dies set, even though they are pretty cheap, are still a lot more than .45-70, and also require a large-thread press...more expense. I've never used, or needed, either.
Click to expand...


Yep, I believe thats who I'm referencing, interestingly, he puts his 577-450 through a neck sizing die, but doesnt do it with the 577. I wonder why and i wonder just how well it holds in.
 
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