Reloading for 3030 - safety issues? Bonus - your loads?

[H Wally]

Ok, title may be misleading.

I've got a fun old 3030 - made in 1897 or 1898 with octagonal 26 inch barrel, the whole works. It's been used, but still a pretty gun. Mechanically she's great

I ended up buying Speer Hot-Cor 170gr flat nosed bullets and I'm wondering if I might be pushing the old girl a bit hard firing such heavy bullets. I've never loaded for the 3030 but seeing as they aren't the strongest actions I don't want to push it too hard, but would still like to have a fairly flat shooter at 100 yards. Combine that with the age of the gun and that I really like it, I'd like to have a load that still has the juice for accurate shooting but won't put too much stress on the action.

Also, using IMR 4350 and a 170 gr bullet, what's your load?

 

[H4831]

Have you fired standard factory loaded ammo in it?
If you have, the "Maximum," loads given in loading books will generate about exactly the same pressure.

 

[Al-Sway]

Ok, title may be misleading.

I've got a fun old 3030 - made in 1897 or 1898 with octagonal 26 inch barrel, the whole works. It's been used, but still a pretty gun. Mechanically she's great

I ended up buying Speer Hot-Cor 170gr flat nosed bullets and I'm wondering if I might be pushing the old girl a bit hard firing such heavy bullets. I've never loaded for the 3030 but seeing as they aren't the strongest actions I don't want to push it too hard, but would still like to have a fairly flat shooter at 100 yards. Combine that with the age of the gun and that I really like it, I'd like to have a load that still has the juice for accurate shooting but won't put too much stress on the action.

Also, using IMR 4350 and a 170 gr bullet, what's your load?

Potentially it should be safe to use with any loads that use standard pressures. The pressures have nothing to do with the bullet weight; the 170 grain is a standard weight for the .30-30. You really need to follow the loading manuals (or on-line data from the powder manufacturers). I am not quite sure what you are expecting from flat shooting at 100 yards. A .30-30 at standard velocity will only have a couple of inches of trajectory at 100 yard.
I would not recommend 4350 for the 30-30. The normal powders are 3031, 4895, Varget, 748, and the like.

 

[H Wally]

Have you fired standard factory loaded ammo in it?
If you have, the "Maximum," loads given in loading books will generate about exactly the same pressure.

Yep - 150gr factory federal. I'm probably just being paranoid, but better to be paranoid than have a worn out gun.

Potentially it should be safe to use with any loads that use standard pressures. The pressures have nothing to do with the bullet weight; the 170 grain is a standard weight for the .30-30. You really need to follow the loading manuals (or on-line data from the powder manufacturers). I am not quite sure what you are expecting from flat shooting at 100 yards. A .30-30 at standard velocity will only have a couple of inches of trajectory at 100 yard.
I would not recommend 4350 for the 30-30. The normal powders are 3031, 4895, Varget, 748, and the like.

I get that bullet weight isn't directly related to pressure, but max load for a 170gr bullet will definitely be more pressure than a minimum load, and the difference is enough to change POI. I guess what I'm stumbling over saying is that I'd like a 150gr and 170gr bullet load that have similar POI at 100 yards, so I don't have to re-adjust everything each time I can't get the right gr bullets for reloading.

As for IMR 4350, I do have a hogdon manual (No 26) that lists Min load as 35grs (1860 fps) and Max load as 37grs (2001 fps). Since every other cartridge I shoot uses IMR 4350 it keeps my costs down and means I don't run out as often.

 

[BUSHMAN79]

I wouldn't use 4350 in that, use 3031! Don't push the speed too much on such an old rifle, either. The early 1894's tend to be really soft, and will stretch if fed lots of hot loads. Later rifles, Great War vintage and later, seem to be harder. Anyway, 3031 seems to burn cooler in the .30WCF so that is all I use now. The old long rifles are really accurate. I can hit things a long way out with mine, but you have to learn the sight settings.

 

[ykkid]

Like 4831 said, bullet weight is not the determinant of pressure. As for getting 150's and 170's to same POI at 100 yards, well, just try it. Just don't soup up either load to achieve co-incident POI if it ain't in the cards.
A recent edition manual is a must. Oh, and the professional ballisticians who do the endless hours of loading and testing for those manuals do actually know what they are talking about. So, no, don't exceed book maximum loads just becasue the action opened without the aid of a board, and the primer did not fall out of the case!

 

[Brutus]

Want a 'pussy-cat' load that anyone would enjoy shooting huh?
Try a 110 grain bullet, let's say the sierra with the big big hollow point, or any M-1 carbine soft point bullet.
Load them over 27.2 grains of IMR-4198. They will shooter to a higher point of aim, than what you are normally used to.
This is a Pet Load from Ken Waters.
Myself, I have not had much luck, with the 100 grain hornady half-jacket though.

PS: Ditto on the IMR-3031. Easy to remember it's thirty grains of that, for any 150 grain round/flat nose bullet.

 

[Ganderite]

You have raised two issues. With an old rifle like that I would not load past the mid point between Start and Max. A steady diet of max is not going to do it any favours.

As for getting the two loads to superimpose, that is a challenge. But why? the 170 is the load of choice. If it was my rifle i would shoot 170 first, and if I found a load that shot well, I would just stick with it. if I was unhappy, I would then try the 150 to see if something is better.

4350 would work, but the Max you quote is hotter than what i would use in a lever rifle.

To find a load that superimposes, shoot 3 loads (3 shots each) of 170 - say 30, 31 and 32. Aim at different aiming marks (targets) but don't touch the sights.

It is critical that you let the barel cool completley between each group. It is the cold barrel shots you want to be the same, and the groups might very well shift as the barrel warms.

Then shoot 3 groups of 3 shots each with the 150 grain bullet, same sight setting as with the 170 test. Cold barrel for each group. Say 32, 33 and 34 grains.

Make sure you clearly label each target. when you get home and study the targets, see if a load of each bullet shot to the same place. if you are lucky, two groups will superimpose. You may find that the groups not only shift in elevation, but in azmuth, too.

We use smilar tests for double barrel rifles. Of several dozen different bullet weights and powders and power charge combinations, I have found only one load that my double 8mm will superimpose. As luck would have it, it is the most expensive bullet (Barnes X) and powder (VIHTIVOURI) that I tried.

 

[H4831]

I too, would stick to 170 grain bullets designed for the 30-30.
The 150 grain factory loads you shot will have the same pressure as factory 170 grains. Both loadings will have about the same pressure as developed in handloads, using the loads listed as "maximun."
That word, maximum, just means the load is about equal to the SAAMI specifications for loadings for the 30-30.
When they set these standards for the 30-30, they certainly were aware of the fact that there are very old rifles out there, made from softer steel than newer ones and they, the ones who set the SAAMI figures, don't want to be sued by someone who blows up an old rifle!
As has been pointed out, a steady diet of full power loads may not do the old rifle any good, so a good plan would be to load a bit lighter, as has been suggested. That is what I would do, if it were mine.

 

[H Wally]

Like 4831 said, bullet weight is not the determinant of pressure. As for getting 150's and 170's to same POI at 100 yards, well, just try it. Just don't soup up either load to achieve co-incident POI if it ain't in the cards.
A recent edition manual is a must. Oh, and the professional ballisticians who do the endless hours of loading and testing for those manuals do actually know what they are talking about. So, no, don't exceed book maximum loads just becasue the action opened without the aid of a board, and the primer did not fall out of the case!

OP - I want to keep pressures low and well below max listed. It would just be nice if I could get them to coincide.

You have raised two issues. With an old rifle like that I would not load past the mid point between Start and Max. A steady diet of max is not going to do it any favours.

As for getting the two loads to superimpose, that is a challenge. But why? the 170 is the load of choice. If it was my rifle i would shoot 170 first, and if I found a load that shot well, I would just stick with it. if I was unhappy, I would then try the 150 to see if something is better.

4350 would work, but the Max you quote is hotter than what i would use in a lever rifle.

To find a load that superimposes, shoot 3 loads (3 shots each) of 170 - say 30, 31 and 32. Aim at different aiming marks (targets) but don't touch the sights.

It is critical that you let the barel cool completley between each group. It is the cold barrel shots you want to be the same, and the groups might very well shift as the barrel warms.

Then shoot 3 groups of 3 shots each with the 150 grain bullet, same sight setting as with the 170 test. Cold barrel for each group. Say 32, 33 and 34 grains.

Make sure you clearly label each target. when you get home and study the targets, see if a load of each bullet shot to the same place. if you are lucky, two groups will superimpose. You may find that the groups not only shift in elevation, but in azmuth, too.

We use smilar tests for double barrel rifles. Of several dozen different bullet weights and powders and power charge combinations, I have found only one load that my double 8mm will superimpose. As luck would have it, it is the most expensive bullet (Barnes X) and powder (VIHTIVOURI) that I tried.

Now that's a good way of doing it. I'll give that a try and see how it turns out. I'd like similar POI for the 150 and 170 because I don't have a guaranteed supply of either, so if I run out of one and want to do some reloading, I'd like to have a similar shooting rd at the end of it.

I too, would stick to 170 grain bullets designed for the 30-30.
The 150 grain factory loads you shot will have the same pressure as factory 170 grains. Both loadings will have about the same pressure as developed in handloads, using the loads listed as "maximun."
That word, maximum, just means the load is about equal to the SAAMI specifications for loadings for the 30-30.
When they set these standards for the 30-30, they certainly were aware of the fact that there are very old rifles out there, made from softer steel than newer ones and they, the ones who set the SAAMI figures, don't want to be sued by someone who blows up an old rifle!
As has been pointed out, a steady diet of full power loads may not do the old rifle any good, so a good plan would be to load a bit lighter, as has been suggested. That is what I would do, if it were mine.

I guess what I'll have to do then is load down the 170 gr a little and load down the 150 gr a lot to keep relatively similar ballistics and keep from running too hot and high pressures. Like before, my main reason for wanting similar shooting rds with different bullet weights is to deal with supply issues and only having access to one or the other on occasion.

Thanks for the tips guys!

 

[H4831]

Your objective of getting the two weights of bullets to hit the same poi, at say 50 yards is certainly worth trying. It is a horse race, though, because you never know until you try it.
There is not that much difference in weight between the two, so they will likely be pretty close, and if you are lucky, they will go into the same group. If they end up quite differently, I would just use the one weight, then when they run out, use the other.
Lymans cast bullet book lists lots of light loads, with proper powder for them. If you want a scanned copy, let me know.

 

[hunter64]

I have 3 1894 rifles, 26" octagon barrels made in 1899, 1902, 1911. All three will shoot ok with Hornady 170 grn bullets but for best results I shoot 311041 bullets sized to .311 and use IMR3031.

At 100 meters all three rifles will stay in 1.5" and my 1911 especially can keep it under an inch. Blows people away at the range, "isn't lever action 30-30's supposed to be horrible for accuracy?". All the gun rags will tell you that 3" at 100 yards is all you are ever going to get out a a model 94 lever.

 

[gps]

The pressures have nothing to do with the bullet weight; the 170 grain is a standard weight for the .30-30.

I get that bullet weight isn't directly related to pressure,

Bullet weight is directly related to pressure and how fast it's built.

Reloading data tells the story. Same cartridge, same powder, same COL. A heavier bullet requires less powder to build the same pressures as a lighter bullet.

 

[H4831]

gps, We all know this, referring to your quote,
"Reloading data tells the story. Same cartridge, same powder, same COL. A heavier bullet requires less powder to build the same pressures as a lighter bullet."

This is what we have been saying, the same pressure is used with any weight bullet, so of course it takes less powder with a heavier bullet, to raise the same pressure.
With equal pressure, the lighter bullet is driven faster. That is why the recoil is about equal between different bullet weights.
For example, a 150 grain bullet at 2900 will have about the same foot pounds of energy as a 180 grain bullet at 2650.
Energy goes both ways. Thus, each load will have about the same recoil.

 

[gps]

gps, We all know this, referring to your quote,
"Reloading data tells the story. Same cartridge, same powder, same COL. A heavier bullet requires less powder to build the same pressures as a lighter bullet."

This is what we have been saying, the same pressure is used with any weight bullet, so of course it takes less powder with a heavier bullet, to raise the same pressure.
With equal pressure, the lighter bullet is driven faster. That is why the recoil is about equal between different bullet weights.
For example, a 150 grain bullet at 2900 will have about the same foot pounds of energy as a 180 grain bullet at 2650.
Energy goes both ways. Thus, each load will have about the same recoil.

Thanks for clarifying.