Reloading for PRS

Here's a survey of what the top 100 PRS guys use from just over a year ago. The OP had this link in the first post.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/12/31/reloading-tips-from-top-precision-rifle-shooters/

You can see the split was 49% on high end (over $500) and 47% low end (under $500, like RCBS chargemaster) for powder scales.

What I found more interesting was the chart below that in PRB article, which was the amount of rounds the top guys shoot.

For the OP, you may find this helpful seeing as you have a 550.

http://www.65guys.com/precision-from-a-progressive-reloader/
 
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6MT said:
....all of this for prs, huh?
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If the loading gives the results desired, then it is all good.

The component costs the same and with just a change in gear I can get rid of another big variable, why not?

maybe it helps... maybe it is just for piece of mind.... I am busting match primers, burning expensive extruded powder, sending almost gold plated bullets down steel pipes made with elfin spells regardless, so keeping my powder charge to the kernel when it takes no extra effort, just seems like good economics.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
If the loading gives the results desired, then it is all good.

The component costs the same and with just a change in gear I can get rid of another big variable, why not?

maybe it helps... maybe it is just for piece of mind.... I am busting match primers, burning expensive extruded powder, sending almost gold plated bullets down steel pipes made with elfin spells regardless, so keeping my powder charge to the kernel when it takes no extra effort, just seems like good economics.

Jerry
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Yeah but Jerry, you get all of those things at a lot less than Joe Public.
 
I paid retail for the scale and trickler... just like everyone else.

My travel to matches are also at full retail ... just like everyone else.

Amortised over the years of shooting and thousands of rds I can TRUST... the difference in cost is peanuts.

Work out the absolute cost for every shot sent down range... barrel, ammo, gas, hotel, food, car wear and tear, member ships, entry fees, whatever... the $200 difference between a CM and FX120i is insignificant in the mix of all my expenses.

Missing is really expensive....

Jerry
 
My reloading practices started in the 80's but were advanced over about 18 years of F class shooting, probably much like Jerry.

Admittedly PRS does not demand F Class precision, but once a person has the proper equipment to load F Class grade ammunition, its hard to break the habit.

The thing is that long range precision is about compensating for mostly atmospheric variables, which should be your only challenge. When you are struggling in a match and sense that something is not right, you set on a quest to eliminate any variable that you can. You begin to study neck tension, brass rework hardening, annealing, weight sorting, sorting bullets by weight and various dimensions, cleaning practices...everything.

Its hard in PRS to identify why exactly one shooter does better than another because its a one guy at a time event, but in F class the difference is very obvious. I remember some years ago shooting next to Star Shooter during a match at 1000 yards and he was playing an entirely different game. I was chasing ghosts and he owned the bull. He had everything dialed right in and it was something to see. None of us had ever before seen anything like it.

When you shoot with a guy like that who's in the zone, its an inspiration. You go home and reassess and little by little you up your game. These days there are plenty of guys who shoot like he did that weekend. We just needed to see it to believe it could be done.

Eliminating variables has just become a habit. Its not a waste of time. Holding a good position is hard enough in PRS without adding unpredictable velocity fluctuations because we don't see the value of making the effort toward greater precision.

Its not just about the powder charge either. Its not that simple. The guys that did well had all their gear dialed right in and they were prepped. Everything was perfect. Nothing was cheap.

You don't have to do it to have fun in PRS. If you are a top level shooter, good hand loads might give you an edge.

If you go into a PRS match with a rifle that delivers F Class accuracy and you have a good data book, you'll be confident and in control. Your mind is clean and settled and you can focus. Its just the opposite when your rig isn't tight. Your mind gets racing and nothing seems to work.
 
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Thanks again for your valuable, informative posts.
+1 that the absolute difference btw the CM and FX+trickler seems a lot at first, but given the importance of accurate load that amt is insignificant on overall cost of this EXPENSIVE hobby. Kinda reminds me of folks that cheap out on tires.

If I had to do it again for sure cry once with FX+trickler.
Mystic Precision said:
...

Amortised over the years of shooting and thousands of rds I can TRUST... the difference in cost is peanuts.

Work out the absolute cost for every shot sent down range... barrel, ammo, gas, hotel, food, car wear and tear, member ships, entry fees, whatever... the $200 difference between a CM and FX120i is insignificant in the mix of all my expenses.

Missing is really expensive....

Jerry
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Too bad your aggressive, abusive presentation style diluted your msg to something bitter.
BadAsMo said:
...
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Bottom line is get out and shoot and have FUN! Opinions are free and there's lots of them out there (some have way to much of an opinion it seems). If you can afford the best or can justify that's what's making you miss targets in something like PRS matches where it's more about form then giver. Otherwise get off your belly and come out and play.
 
Shooters,
Take a look at the NEw Nosler RDF line. I've been shooting them for the last 3 months. The aren't the cheapest but not the most expensive either and there shoot great. Nosler did it right this time and backed their BC testing up with real world data from some of the best shooters in the US. So far for all of the RDFs 70s, 105, 140 and the 175s load them .030-.050 off the lands. If you think you are 30 thou off and they are not shooting keep loading them further back until they shoot. These bullet don't even want to sniff the lands. Real world BC for these bullets maybe higher than what is printed on the box. The 70s don't go through trans sonic very well but the .211 BC is solid use a DSF of 1.090, the Most guys are using .294 sih for the 105s, the 140 are right at .330 use a Drop Scale factor of 1.030 for both 6 and 6.5. The 175s 30s in my rifle are .277 through trans sonic But I have a 1-10 twist so getting a little bump out of the faster twist. I have shot all of the bullets past 1400 yards and the 175s out to 1840 yards. Enjoy
 
burnaby said:
Thanks again for your valuable, informative posts.
+1 that the absolute difference btw the CM and FX+trickler seems a lot at first, but given the importance of accurate load that amt is insignificant on overall cost of this EXPENSIVE hobby. Kinda reminds me of folks that cheap out on tires.

If I had to do it again for sure cry once with FX+trickler.


Too bad your aggressive, abusive presentation style diluted your msg to something bitter.
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I just picked up the fx120 and v2 trickler. I'm loading with the same accuracy in 1/4 of the time. It was money well spent. The perfect addition to a progressive press set up.
 
Shibby! said:
I think this how gone way past PRS now... Ironic this discipline arguably requires the least out of rifle accuracy. Especially in Canada and it's limited distances.
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A few points to consider.. again, if you are happy with the level of peformance, then just file the following in interesting junk....

With ammo tuning, the vertical component of the group changes very quickly with incremental changes in powder charge ie... the left and right may be the same but the up and down will change a substantial amount. ... test in 0.1gr increments at 250yds to 300m on either side of the ideal charge weight. The effect is very pronounced and will be easy to see on target.

Obviously, you need a scale that is accurate to under 0.1gr to make ammo at each 0.1gr increment.

I have never seen a cartridge in the 308 or smaller case volume that didn't react to 0.2- 0.3gr of powder change.... many can show a change at the 0.1gr level.

No matter how stable a powder, ALL will change a bit over large swings in ambient temperature... same effect as adjusting your powder charge a tenth or two.

By doing this simple test, you will get to prove how sensitive your rig is to both temp swings and load tuning. Ideally, you would want to load in the middle of your node so you have room on either side for changes in temp. The more your powder charge varies, the closer some of your ammo will be to dropping out of your node when affected by the same temp effect.

PRS may not require the most accurate set up BUT it does reward shooters that have repeatable and reliable drop charts. If the vertical tuning of your rifle can vary due to powder charge variations AND temp changes, how stable will your dope chart be if the groups can change vertically as much as 1.5 MOA at distance?

Testing your rig under the conditions you play will determine whether any of this matters and to what extent. I have spent years field shooting on rocks and gongs long before I got into F class. The vertical ping pong that I suffered in the early days is what taught me about load tuning vs vertical... and the need for better scales.

Going high and low on a target is not only frustrating, it makes it hard to figure out the elevation dope as distances reach out. Where exactly is my group center? If I hit low at one yardage, do I dial more at another?

For my prep into the PRS game, I am going to put alot of emphasis on making my vertical tuning as stable and consistent as possible. That way I am only worrying about the left and right. And getting precise repeatable powder charges is a main part of this tuning.

1/2 MOA may be "enough" but to maintain that all the way out to 1200+yds requires tuning on par with LR BR and F class rifles.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
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Jerry.

You're beating a dead horse here. We're not arguing the benefits to accurate loading. Fill your boots whatever way you want. Typically the shooters of PRS are quite experienced and have already done all these things already. Overall, they are pretty basic fundamentals of reloading.

Shoot a couple events. Accuracy definitely matters. Shooting off a wobbly barricade and the skills/equipment required to do so with good accuracy far outweigh the difference between .25, .5 or even .75/1. Different competitions have different challenges, but PRS seems to break down the benchrest/F-class shooters with the challenge of positional shooting requirements.

It's a challenge some strive for and have done quite well in the limited time PRS has been going on here. Some shooters are impressive to watch. Not because of their guns accuracy, but due to their adaption of positions and ability to put that round on target. It's the shooter, much less then gun.
 
That's the same old story TR sling shooters use to justify the white knuckled clinging to the lowest possible rung on thier reloading ladder. TR shooters think F Class guys are crazy or that what we do is a waste of effort for them and that theme is ringing the bell here as well. All I know is that a good TR shooter who approaches the game with the discipline of an F Class shooter has an edge over the other guys.

F Class just a few years ago was shooting at a 1 MOA bull and that had to be reduced to 1/2 MOA because too many guys were shooting perfect scores. Tie breakers would go on for 20 rounds on a 1 MOA bull... maybe more. Heck during an ISU match I once put 117 rounds in a row into 1 MOA at 300 meters with a 223. Admittedly, that was not half crouched and offhand from the top of a flat tire.

At the moment we can all rest on our laurels with the comfort of a big 2 MOA plate out there. Enjoy it while you can because once enough guys get their game wired right and scores begin to cluster at the top, the targets will need to become smaller, just like F Class did.

It's just the nature of competition and its called competition for a reason. Sure, I get it, the nature of PRS shooting is designed to scramble us, so for this game shooting perfect scores will always be tough. But time passes and guys adapt.

If you are not prepared to push the envelope, that's ok, but then you're not "really" a competitor then are you? If you're in it for the fun that's OK, we all are really...but even so everyone has to set their own level that they feel comfortable investing in. I golf on occasion too but you'll not find me on the PGA tour.

Anyone who is truly great at something got their by sacrificing some other area of his life. We each get to decide for ourselves how to balance.
 
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Plenty of sub-moa plates out at distance at many matches. Lone Survivor had nearly all MOA plates on their prone stages and those went out to 1200 yards. Peacemaker had a KYL rack with plates that were smaller than 1/2 MOA at 700ish (and someone managed to clean it). The prarie dogs at CORE AI weren't even MOA wide and you had to shoot them off a fence. It really depends on the match...

I wouldn't bring ammo to a match for open division that didn't have SDs in the mid singles and couldn't hold 1/2 MOA. Not when you've got guys like Joe Walls that can shoot dime size groups at 100 off a barricade.
 
Didnt think this thread would turn into a 6 page discussion but there is tons of great info here. Picked up a Fx and V2 trickler and have been messing around with it. No rounds loaded yet but have a stack of 175g smk's 185 Juggernauts and lots of Varget. Its either been -25 or 80kmh winds here lately so no good range days to head out for load development.

I am still debating how I am going to go about load development. I have read lots on the ladder test and the OCW method. Is there a consensus on the best method?
 
b_w. said:
Didnt think this thread would turn into a 6 page discussion but there is tons of great info here. Picked up a Fx and V2 trickler and have been messing around with it. No rounds loaded yet but have a stack of 175g smk's 185 Juggernauts and lots of Varget. Its either been -25 or 80kmh winds here lately so no good range days to head out for load development.

I am still debating how I am going to go about load development. I have read lots on the ladder test and the OCW method. Is there a consensus on the best method?
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Haha, you want to make this a really long thread now!
 
b_w. said:
Didnt think this thread would turn into a 6 page discussion but there is tons of great info here. Picked up a Fx and V2 trickler and have been messing around with it. No rounds loaded yet but have a stack of 175g smk's 185 Juggernauts and lots of Varget. Its either been -25 or 80kmh winds here lately so no good range days to head out for load development.

I am still debating how I am going to go about load development. I have read lots on the ladder test and the OCW method. Is there a consensus on the best method?
Click to expand...

Just be careful to keep an open mind as you review your results.

All too often people see only what they are looking to see.

If a guy won a match one day after cleaning his rifle with Vaseline, he may be inclined to think that he won because of it and not in spite of it. It can get to be like believing in Voodoo and the magic of chicken bones.

If you're testing powder charges, keep in mind that your results are also influenced by other things like...intermittent cloud cover, time between shots, thermal expansion, case weight variation, bullet jump, neck tension, temperature, if the cases are fire formed and only neck sized or FL resized, brass hardness variation, copper build up (even light) after a string of shots changing the coefficient of friction and affecting back pressure and velocity ... etc...

Try to have everything as consistent as you can so that you can try to isolate one variable at a time.

I generally start with a shotgun approach and try everything but the kitchen sink. This might be 3-5 round groups. From that first wave I establish some sort of base line.

After that, I go into a series of incremental comparisions between the base line and the new test loads. These will be 5 round groups and maybe 2x 5 round groups.

I'm out to prove if my new test results are better or worse than the base line load? If yes, that becomes my new base line load. The cycle continues.

Take good notes and pictures of your targets with the results. If you document well then you will have the data to compare next year after you forget the details.

In a debate between two similar powders I always go with the faster burn rate. It will burn cleaner and tend to give better accuracy after 50 rounds.

One last point... keep your efforts relative to the rifle you are testing. If you're testing a super dooper accurate rifle, then its worth going the extra mile. If you're testing some low budget rig, you need to know when to call it quits and take what you got.

That's how I do it anyway.
 
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