Rem 700 extractor upgrade?

What to do with the Rem 700 extractor?

  • Keep it stock

    Votes: 38 62.3%

  • Replace with the Sako extractor upgrade

    Votes: 22 36.1%

  • Other (please explain in the tread if you pick this)

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • Total voters
    61
HeadDamage

HeadDamage

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Well after a long time without a problem I have at last had the Remington 700 fail to extract problem hit me. I know that alot of people like the Sako extractor upgrade but thought I'd ask on here as I've also heard some down sides to it and they say stick with the rem unit. What do you guys think?

Thanks.
 
It is not an upgrade, it is downgrading an extremely stong design and there have been deaths and injuries associated with it.

Sako extractors in a Remington. They are strong BUT they are not as strong and safe as the original 700 set up. Remington's 3 rings of steel surrounding the case head support the brass under extreme pressure as no other set up does. The case does not rupture due to all the support. You may not be able to open the bolt, and when removing the barrel you find the case head "welded" to the bolt face. I have seen that with a 222. The brass almost had to be machined off the bolt. I had to install a new extractor and there was no other damage to the rifle. I had one case of a 303 British fired in a 7mm Mag... I had to remove the barrel as the bolt was locked shut, but the case removed from the bolt face then with no damage at all. These incidents show how great the design is of the 700 system. I do not think there is a better extractor system. That is my belief anyway. I have seen other commercial actions blown to pieces or damaged beyond repair. I have never seen that of a 700. (Not to say it has not happened, but it must be rare)

The angle of ejection is changed a lot with the Sako conversion. Take a factory 700 bolt and look at the face of it. Take a case and insert it into the bolt face and observe where the ejector wants to push it. That angle is only slightly higher than straight sideways. With the Sako extractor fitted as close to the top of the right locking lug as you can, the angle of ejection with a fired case is high enough to always hit a 30mm scope tube with low mounts, or the windage adjustment turret. A fired case is shorter than a loaded round and has no weight at the front of it to help hold it down. I found out all this when I did the first and only conversion I have done, on a customer’s request. The conversion was done perfectly and as close to the locking lug as possible. I encountered no problems doing it. I recommend not doing the conversion now.

With a Sako style conversion, you remove the total support of the design when you machine a slot length wise to install the Sako extractor. This causes a weaker area where one of the 3 rings of steel has now been removed. Total support has been reduced, and if a case ruptures the gases may blow back through this area with the extractor. It is the weakest link in the support of the case now.

I feel the conversion to Sako style is unsafe... it isn't as strong or safe as the original 700 extractor and the angle of ejection changes a lot... enough to cause some people problems.

I have had very few problems with 700 extractors and fixing them isn't a big deal.
 
guntech said:
It is not an upgrade, it is downgrading an extremely stong design and there have been deaths and injuries associated with it.

Sako extractors in a Remington. They are strong BUT they are not as strong and safe as the original 700 set up. Remington's 3 rings of steel surrounding the case head support the brass under extreme pressure as no other set up does. The case does not rupture due to all the support. You may not be able to open the bolt, and when removing the barrel you find the case head "welded" to the bolt face. I have seen that with a 222. The brass almost had to be machined off the bolt. I had to install a new extractor and there was no other damage to the rifle. I had one case of a 303 British fired in a 7mm Mag... I had to remove the barrel as the bolt was locked shut, but the case removed from the bolt face then with no damage at all. These incidents show how great the design is of the 700 system. I do not think there is a better extractor system. That is my belief anyway. I have seen other commercial actions blown to pieces or damaged beyond repair. I have never seen that of a 700. (Not to say it has not happened, but it must be rare)

The angle of ejection is changed a lot with the Sako conversion. Take a factory 700 bolt and look at the face of it. Take a case and insert it into the bolt face and observe where the ejector wants to push it. That angle is only slightly higher than straight sideways. With the Sako extractor fitted as close to the top of the right locking lug as you can, the angle of ejection with a fired case is high enough to always hit a 30mm scope tube with low mounts, or the windage adjustment turret. A fired case is shorter than a loaded round and has no weight at the front of it to help hold it down. I found out all this when I did the first and only conversion I have done, on a customer’s request. The conversion was done perfectly and as close to the locking lug as possible. I encountered no problems doing it. I recommend not doing the conversion now.

With a Sako style conversion, you remove the total support of the design when you machine a slot length wise to install the Sako extractor. This causes a weaker area where one of the 3 rings of steel has now been removed. Total support has been reduced, and if a case ruptures the gases may blow back through this area with the extractor. It is the weakest link in the support of the case now.

I feel the conversion to Sako style is unsafe... it isn't as strong or safe as the original 700 extractor and the angle of ejection changes a lot... enough to cause some people problems.

I have had very few problems with 700 extractors and fixing them isn't a big deal.
Click to expand...

Wow Dennis, you gave me a whole new perspective on this 'upgrade', thank you. :)
 
well I've seen about 100 of the conversions done and never seen a problem, ever. and that was from Dlask. I shoot regularly with people who've had the conversion done and haven't heard of any complaints about the ejection angle either, but to be fair, I don't know the height of scope rings those guys use. I suppose if you are shooting a magnum cartridge you might want to think it over, but .308, while it can generate high pressure, I wouldn't worry about it. Besides we all wear our safety glasses when we shoot right?
 
The Remington extractor is the Achilles heal of the model 700 system. The extractor on mine broke off while I was at the range one day, and let me tell you, it's a major pain in the ass to have it repaired. It took a professional gun smith with a few special tools like a mini-riveter to replace the extractor. The rifle was basically out of commission until it was back from the gunsmith.

The thing that I couldn't get over was how feeble the extractor was. Its a thin piece of metal thats probably about one mm thick. Remington should redesign their extractor system.
 
valtro12 said:
The Remington extractor is the Achilles heal of the model 700 system. The extractor on mine broke off while I was at the range one day, and let me tell you, it's a major pain in the ass to have it repaired. It took a professional gun smith with a few special tools like a mini-riveter to replace the extractor. The rifle was basically out of commission until it was back from the gunsmith.

The thing that I couldn't get over was how feeble the extractor was. Its a thin piece of metal thats probably about one mm thick. Remington should redesign their extractor system.
Click to expand...

That little thin piece of steel is not feeble, it will hold all of my weight easily. (Over 200 pounds) In almost 40 years of gunsmithing I have encountered only a few 700 extractor problems.... and they were quite fixable. I have encountered many more M98 extractor problems than Remington 700's.
 
Slavex said:
well I've seen about 100 of the conversions done and never seen a problem, ever. and that was from Dlask. I shoot regularly with people who've had the conversion done and haven't heard of any complaints about the ejection angle either, but to be fair, I don't know the height of scope rings those guys use. I suppose if you are shooting a magnum cartridge you might want to think it over, but .308, while it can generate high pressure, I wouldn't worry about it. Besides we all wear our safety glasses when we shoot right?
Click to expand...

The safety problem occurs only if you have a catastophic case failure. Then the Sako style extractor becomes a 10,000 f/s projectile. If you never have a case failure you will not have a safety problem. A bit like not wearing your seat belt or a motorcycle helmet - not a safety problem if you are never in an accident.....

Safety glasses may deflect gases but they don't stop high velocity projectiles.

It is only a matter of time and some lawyer will be asking some gunsmith, "Please describe how you drastically altered what could be argued as the strongest, safest bolt action design ever mass produced......"
 
I have seen, time and again, some fool with an overload, pound the Remington bolt open with a chunk of whatever, and that "feeble" piece of steel that is the 700 extractor has taken the case out every time. Don't mess with a good system!! I'm with Dennis on this one. Eagleye.
 
If it works then leave it alone, if you want to spend money on it then just buy a better built action. By the way, take a rod with you always, may turn into a single shot but it still shoots.
 
Dennis has stated the true case better than I ever could, and I agree 110% with his post.
I will NOT entertain this modification at my shop and strongly suggest rethinking the modification to any considering it. Ut is a nice way for a smith to add to the bill, but in the 30 years I have been in the trade the very few 700 extractors I have had to replace barely makes the rivet tools worth owning. My advice stick with factory on this 1
 
I dont know why everbody hates the Sako extractor many of the best custom rifles that are built on 700 action most if not all feature Sako extractors. I was quite shocked at Headdamages failure yesterday seeing as his rifle is not quite a year old yet and the extractors fails says a lot about the design of the 700 extractor
 
Go back and read Dennis' explanation of why there are issues with the alteration. For the 'smith doing the conversion, there are very serious liability concerns. In the event of a catastrophic case failure, the breeching of the rifle has been compromised. If litigation were to follow, the consequences for the gunsmith could be substantial, because the gunsmith knowingly chose to defeat the safety breeching incorporated in the design. I have seen rifles which experienced catastrophic case failure. It is rare, but it does happen. Rarely, Remington extractors, like any other mechanical device fail. I have seen broken Remington extractors. I have also seen broken Mauser and sako style extractors. Many enthusiasts accessorize their 10/22s. Others, who know more about the Remington action than Remington engineers want the extractor conversion.
 
I will be the first to say that the Remington system certainly appears feable but it does work. Far from my first choice. Actually I think you can count the number of custom actions that use the Remington system on.......one finger or is that "0." If they have a patent, surely it must be expired by now....and other makers would be using it.....but I don't think they are.
 
guntech said:
Safety glasses may deflect gases but they don't stop high velocity projectiles......."
Click to expand...


Dennis, actually I believe there are safety glasses that do stop high velocity projectiles...that is if you consider the .22 rf one of those....I seem to recall seeing a video on the topic....but I think we get your point.
 
### International said:
Dennis, actually I believe there are safety glasses that do stop high velocity projectiles...that is if you consider the .22 rf one of those....I seem to recall seeing a video on the topic....but I think we get your point.
Click to expand...

A small steel fragment at explosion accelerated speeds (like Dennis speculated, 10,000fps say) is going to have a hell of an argument with whatever is trying to stop it. Big difference between that and a slow, soft 'lil .22LR :) And lets be honest, how many of us have/do shoot our Remingtons in sunglasses, or no glasses at all? Even if the high end glasses could stop such a fragment, which I doubt, are we all wearing them? ;)
 
well has anyone had experience with a case failure and the Sako style extractor? Having watched two people drop out of matches in the last few years due to factory extractor failures, I know I'd still put a Sako extractor in a Remy, if I had one.
 
Eye protection "may" save eyes, I have had my share of thing bouncing off of my lenses while taking aprt firearms or turning things in the machines, but what about the rest of the face. I saw the results from a rifle coming apart, the parts that were not stopped by safety lenses penetrated the face, and brain causing permanent brain damage to the shooter. Altering ANY bolt basic design to " improve" its operation, should be approached with caution.
Or better yet avoided. The major makers have engineers that design somethings for a purpose, and more importantly the liability insurance to back it up, most gunsmiths do not.
Possibly Remington has learned something from Winchesters action changes in the early 60s and figures if it ain't broke don't fix it??? We all know what that 1960s decision cost Winchester!
 
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