Thanks to all for your replies. I tried all cleaners I have on hand (plenty 0 parches moly cleaner, Shooters choice (copper, lead and black powder), Hoppes (benchrest & #9), Cleanbore 10 (copper cutter & solvent), Slip2000 (carbon killer & copper cutter), MPro-7 and the only one that will lift it - Barnes CR-10 (Almost pure ammonia copper remover). I doubt it is very good for the bullets and it takes a lot of rubbing. Next will try vibrating cleaner with green corn cob. If that does not work, will step up to ceramic tumbler.......jbrent