Restoration Question on Historically Similar Methods

Coffice

Coffice

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Hey fellas,

I have some questions about restoring milsurp to display and utilize as a shooter outside of collect ability.

I made a thread recently about a nice little M91/41 Carcano I picked up. This winter I would like to tackle it as a restoration project, such as rebluing some of the action if not the entire receiver and barrel, and reworking the stock.

What I would like to know is the methodologies of the rifle fit and finish process for other milsurps including my carcano. How were they blued? What kind of stock finish was commonly used? This is to create an accurate depiction of how the rifles would have seemed during their service as recently issued and built fighting rifles. My hope is to collect and restore common examples for display and to be able to demonstrate them as shooters to folks interested in the milsurp game.

I guess you could call it preserving history through restoration? Anyway. Guidance on this would be greatly helpful, I've been using the resto sticky for tips and tricks but I would like to restore as mentioned, as close to factory original spec as possible.

Thanks guys!
 
Hi,

Because when you mess with it, it’s no longer original. Not that a Carcano is a big dollar rifle but, rub the wood down with BLO, touch up the blue and VOILA you’ve bubba’d away a quick hundred bucks.
 
Deltasilver said:
Hi,

Because when you mess with it, it’s no longer original. Not that a Carcano is a big dollar rifle but, rub the wood down with BLO, touch up the blue and VOILA you’ve bubba’d away a quick hundred bucks.
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I'm not exactly sure what is bubba'd about trying to follow the original methods of finish for the rifle to return it as close to original finish levels as possible. Not trying to build a nest egg of all-matching haven't-been-cleaned-since-1945 relics, just trying to make it nice for display on a basic level and hoping folks may have some literature or knowledge on how firearms were blued during the early 20th century and what finishes were common for stock sets so I can stay as true as possible.

Blue touch up doesn't attract me too much, would prefer to reblue entirely for the sake of evenness.
 
It depends what you are starting with. If the receiver is pitted up, and the overall condition is only fair, then sure, improve the rifle.

lf it's in good or better condition, anything other than re-oiling the stock and cleaning grime or active rust off the metal will reduce the value and not appeal to most potential owners.

If you like old gun restoration, may I suggest collecting old sporting rifle's? There are lots of really beat Winchester's out there that are too far gone to be collectible as-is, and are prime candidates for a restoration.

Now for techniques. 95% of any bluing job is metal prep. This is not an amateur task, gunsmiths go to school for over a year to learn proper metal prep with files, stones, paper and even metal working machines.

I would submit that a historically correct finish restoration is beyond the scope of a single forum post to explain.

And once you did that, the carcano 41 original finish is a salt bath blue job, which you aren't going to achieve at home. Get ready for a $200+ visit to the gunsmith for just the bath dip, assuming you do your own metal prep.
 
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Coffice said:
I'm not exactly sure what is bubba'd about trying to follow the original methods of finish for the rifle to return it as close to original finish levels as possible. Not trying to build a nest egg of all-matching haven't-been-cleaned-since-1945 relics, just trying to make it nice for display on a basic level and hoping folks may have some literature or knowledge on how firearms were blued during the early 20th century and what finishes were common for stock sets so I can stay as true as possible.

Blue touch up doesn't attract me too much, would prefer to reblue entirely for the sake of evenness.
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There is no one answer. Each firearm type will have its own answer in what original finish was. As the the 91/41, it was a hot process salt bath blueing, similar to a contemporary sporting rifle.

Earlier models of the carcano, like the WW1 era m91 were rust blued, a different process and look entirely.
 
Coffice said:
I'm not exactly sure what is bubba'd about trying to follow the original methods of finish for the rifle to return it as close to original finish levels as possible....
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I suck at conveying the right tone in these posts, not jumping on you fella. What I was getting at is that the rifle is original until you change something right? Like a barn find muscle car or antique dresser, once you refinish it, that originality is gone forever.

And just to be clear, Bubba isn’t just hacksaws and belt sanders. Done some myself, just got to understand that the rifles actual history and value as a collector piece are impacted negatively.

Fair ‘nuff?
 
It’s your property do as you see fit, surplus military firearms are not rare prices of equipment they made millions of them. If you like the look of a re-bluing then do it, each to there own, that is one of the freedoms this county affords us.
 
Claven2 said:
There is no one answer. Each firearm type will have its own answer in what original finish was. As the the 91/41, it was a hot process salt bath blueing, similar to a contemporary sporting rifle.

Earlier models of the carcano, like the WW1 era m91 were rust blued, a different process and look entirely.
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I have to be clear in that the potential collector value of the rifle itself isn't important to me whatsoever, it will be for me and me alone in terms of it's inherit value, but for others merely for display as a representation of firearms of my collection. All matching guns are pieces of history which should be preserved, but in this case I feel it's fine to re-work.

How can you tell the difference between the blueing finishes? Do you know of any literature that could point me in the right direction?

I should have posted a disclaimer this isn't for the purpose of restoring matching bring backs and and museum pieces, but for beat up milsurp which deserves a new lease at life.

Deltasilver said:
I suck at conveying the right tone in these posts, not jumping on you fella. What I was getting at is that the rifle is original until you change something right? Like a barn find muscle car or antique dresser, once you refinish it, that originality is gone forever.

And just to be clear, Bubba isn’t just hacksaws and belt sanders. Done some myself, just got to understand that the rifles actual history and value as a collector piece are impacted negatively.

Fair ‘nuff?
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Not a problem pal, I understand. Was thinking I may have came off harsh myself.

I can fully appreciate museum pieces as a collector, however in this case the purpose is not to retain value to anyone but myself, but to be used as a representation of what the firearms were like as issued, but NOT to be passed off as originally preserved grade or some such thing. I ain't no Mitchell's Mauser's type.
 
What I've done is a "restomod" of crappy BBQ Molot SKS refurbs, and got one example that actually looks pretty good.
It'll never be a collector, but it's now way too pretty to toss under the back seat of a crew cab.
 
Bubba Yugga said:
What I've done is a "restomod" of crappy BBQ Molot SKS refurbs, and got one example that actually looks pretty good.
It'll never be a collector, but it's now way too pretty to toss under the back seat of a crew cab.
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That's basically what I'm going for, only historically similar in finish.

Also I looked into the question on the plum blueing, turns out there is a compound that "browns" metal a little more then blues it...maybe that is the one they use? Again I'm not sure...I wonder if the library would have books on this or not.
 
Grock-co said:
It’s your property do as you see fit, surplus military firearms are not rare prices of equipment they made millions of them. If you like the look of a re-bluing then do it, each to there own, that is one of the freedoms this county affords us.
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Yeah. Good solid advice there. Not.
 
Take it apart and clean the wood with turpentine and the metal with acetone to get the grunge off. If there is rust on the metal take some 0000 steel wool and some oil or diesel and give it a slight polish and then oil to protect from rust.
If you have any dings or gouges now would be the best time to deal with them. Use a damp piece of cloth and a clothes iron to steam the dents and gouges but make sure the cloth is not to wet and the iron not to hot. Small dents will often disappear but gouges will not.
They are part of the history so I leave them. Often the steaming will raise whiskers on the surface of the wood. My preferred method is to take some 600 grit wet and dry paper along with a bit of turpentine to knock down the whiskers. Just be careful around markings.
Avoid steel wool on the stock, small bits are left behind and if they come in contact with moisture they turn into black spots Take a mixture of 50/50 raw linseed oil and turpentine and wipe down the stock and let it sit for 1/2 hour. Then take a piece of cotton or denim and rub all the excess oil off and let it dry. A few days later repeat the process. Be careful with the oil soaked cloths they could spontaneous combust if you leave them around. I keep them outside or in a big jar sealed in the freezer.

I try not to restore but rather preserve these rifles. Oil the metal and give the wood a drink so it doesn't shrink or warp.
 
Coffice, once upon a time, I went down the same rabbit hole. Years ago, I had a couple of Stens. One of them, I kept all original. It was in fair to good condition with all matching parts. It wasn't perfect but if it could talk, I could only imagine the stories it would tell. It had character and history which the purist would feel is lost if I did a full restoration. I get it.

Then there was my "FrankenSTEN". It was comprised of parts from several different guns. Some pieces were pitted beyond salvation and it even had a couple of homemade parts. I figured that I wasn't really distroying a good example so I decided to redo the gun as a trial gun. What the military would have been presented with during the initial trials. Let me tell you, it took more time and money than I anticipated. I wasn't going to re-blue an original barrel in good to very good condition because there was no need for a good example but this barrel was pitted and was something that I wanted to do. In the end, the project gun turned out to be a decent example of a gun that might have gone into military trials. It might have looked great for the uninnitated. I donated it to a museum but every time I visit, the gun bothers me because I am the only one who can see what is left of the pitting beyond the bluing. The bluing of the barrel was professionally done but the gunsmith could not take the barrel down any more than what he did without changing the appearence and or distroying some of the markings. First rate bluing. It looks almost original but the pitting still bothers me but that is just me.

As for your Carcano restoration, go for it if that is what you so desire. I believe the type of bluing will depend of the varient and where that particular rifle was manufactured. Information such as year of production, serial number, arsenal markings would help determine the varient. I am assuming you are staring with a less than perfect example because if you had a perfect example you wouldn't have to restore it. I have already voiced my concerns about starting with less than perfect examples, so best of luck with your journey.
 
This is what it boils down to.

First and foremost the Carcano rifles are the Rodney Dangerfield's of the milsurp communities. You may be to young to remember him.

Second, not all milsurps are collectible. Not all of them are even historical.

Most have not been there, done that. That's just a pipe dream many of us including myself have.

IF FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL REASONS you want YOUR rifle to look pristine and are willing to spend the time and money to get it that way, you can refinish it in a similar manner that the arsenals Factory Thorough Repaired. Still, there are so many extremely nice Carcano rifles out there of all models that it would likely be cheaper and definitely easier to just purchase one of those.

OP, your rifle may actually have been there and done that. A lot of Carcano rifles were. Many of them were never cleaned up after WWII and many were left behind in Africa as well as sold on the surplus markets. Some nations used them as cheap Drill Purpose rifles as they were considered obsolete even before the end of WWII.

They are a lot stronger than most realize. Because of the relatively light loading in their cartridges they got a reputation for being weak. The reason the Italians loaded their cartridges to the levels they did was because they chose to and it was easier on their troops.

An example of their inherent strength is evident in some of the other chamberings they were built in such as the full power 7.92x57 Mauser and the 6.5 Japanese.

Some people like to leave the rifles as is. I am one of those but I realize that isn't for everyone. The days of "cleaning them up" are long over. It's just a good way to throw away money.

Now, if you're returning a sporterized rifle back to its original configuration that's another issue again.

Whatever, in the case of this particular milsurp you won't be out of a lot of pocket money. Maybe a couple of hundred at the most.
 
Both of the above posts show the reasons I am interested in doing some light work to this rifle.

It sure doesn't get any respect (I had to look up what Rodney Dangerfield was known for...you guessed correct I'm too young!) and I fully believe that it would be worth the time and effort to show that respect in my own way, just like Garaldtao did with his FRANKENSTEN!

I appreciate the wisdom guys, I'll have to keep this in all in mind when I get going. I'm considering going for a rust-blue now as a hot blue is out of my reach anywhere here in NS I believe, even outside of DYI stuff.

The guidance I've gotten on doing the wood (especially the linseed oil that was a hot tip) should also work well.
 
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