Retrieving

metcalfe

metcalfe

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Ontario
Hey guys, I was hoping to pick some brains on getting our Vizsla to fetch.

She is 2 years old and got her Field Dog Junior last fall.
So far she's shown a lot of potential for the next level of Field Trials, and even inspired me to take up hunting.

We had a nice long training session today and Mischa was a star Pointer as usual.

The trouble was her retrieving. The real trouble was her complete lack of it!
Last summer she would retrieve a frozen dead bird out of the water, and bring it back real close to me. I though it was great, and figured today would be much of the same.
Nope. She brought a couple frozen birds to the shore, but never out of the water, and never to any of us.
After that, our trainer decided to simplify with some frozen birds on land. Nothing! She'd run up, take a quick sniff, and was off to find some live birds.

After that the trainer decided to plant some more live birds, and since Mischa was good on blank shotgun primers, he pulled out his 20 Ga and we set 2 more Chukar out for her. She pointed each of them quickly, and held for over a minute before he flushed. The trainer fired after he flushed and once the bird hit the ground, I would release Mischa, and she would Point the dead bird instead of picking it up.

She is fine with a gun over her(huge win of the day), and is as interested in birds as ever....She just doesn't care about bringing them to us. All she wants is to find the next one.

I'd rather not go the Force-Fetch route, but am willing to if necessary.
I got my hunting/gun licence this year, even bought a Rem 870, and have been practicing busting clays so that I don't disappoint my dog too much by missing everything she points! So, I'm all-in on hunting over my girl. It would be nice if she brought our dinner back for us! :D

Our 2 Trainer's (husband/wife) aren't too worried about it, but I wanted to ask what you all thought the next step should or even could be.

On a more positive note, We did get to bring home a fresh Chukar and will be BBQing it up! My g/f and I may share a bite with Mischa, but we also may not since we had to pick the darn things up for her all day... ;)

It is great to know that she's finally gun-broken. It was my biggest worry. The retrieving is secondary, but still important.

TIA for any advice.
 
since I only train retrievers I cannot advise if a Vizla is supposed to retrieve but I have heard of a fellow who used a Vizla in early season for retrieving ducks.
I would substitute thawed ducks for retrieving but force fetch may be your only choice if she doesn't find the retrieving to be fun. Not sure what could have changed from last year.
If it is overdone the dogs can lose interest but I am not sure if that is a factor in your case.

I may be old fashioned but giving a bird dog game bird meat would be like feeding the farm yard dog farm yard chickens. It can only get worse. Stick to dog food.
 
Force fetch training... Just go slow & keep at it... You don't have to be hard on the dog to win this battle...

Cheers
Jay
 
Force fetch is the best way to go, but if it makes you feel better you can call it "Conditioned Retrieving", which is what I've heard some obedience types refer to it as.
Despite the word FORCE in the name, it typically isn't particularly forceful, and often actually inproves the relationship between dog and handler, as well as improving the dogs bidability in many other aspects of training.
If you are looking for a program, probably the best out there is Evan Grahams "SmartFetch" program, I'd suggest getting both the DVD and the book.
 
Thinking said:
Force fetch is the best way to go, but if it makes you feel better you can call it "Conditioned Retrieving", which is what I've heard some obedience types refer to it as.
Despite the word FORCE in the name, it typically isn't particularly forceful, and often actually inproves the relationship between dog and handler, as well as improving the dogs bidability in many other aspects of training.
If you are looking for a program, probably the best out there is Evan Grahams "SmartFetch" program, I'd suggest getting both the DVD and the book.
Click to expand...

Spot on! Well said Thinking!

Cheers
Jay
 
I got my setter retrieving as a pup by putting her on a long quartering lead. I would toss a goose wing into the long grass make her hold and then give her the "dead bird fetch it up command." At first she would try and run off with the wing but with me lightly tugging on the other end of the lead I would eventually get her back and to drop it right at my feet. Once off the quartering lead I would overlay the neck stimulation with a shock collar. Now once a bird drops and she finds a simple whistle will bring her back to me.
 
The trouble with force-fetch and a Vizsla is that they're pretty sensitive dogs and shut down easier than say a Lab or German short-haired would. They're stubborn, then all of a sudden become pussies if you push too hard.

I use an e-collar on her which has the same basis as force-fetch, but I can't train her "positively" with the collar because she almost shuts down on the lowest setting. She stops and pays attention with a quick little buzz, but the 'light shock till they comply' training just doesn't work on her.


I don't want to turn her off birds, so I think I need to keep fetch a game, but enforce the command with a check cord on the object like ontario mentioned.
If it gets me nowhere, then I'll re-visit the 'force-fetch' idea.
 
metcalfe said:
The trouble with force-fetch and a Vizsla is that they're pretty sensitive dogs and shut down easier than say a Lab or German short-haired would. They're stubborn, then all of a sudden become pussies if you push too hard.

I use an e-collar on her which has the same basis as force-fetch, but I can't train her "positively" with the collar because she almost shuts down on the lowest setting. She stops and pays attention with a quick little buzz, but the 'light shock till they comply' training just doesn't work on her.


I don't want to turn her off birds, so I think I need to keep fetch a game, but enforce the command with a check cord on the object like ontario mentioned.
If it gets me nowhere, then I'll re-visit the 'force-fetch' idea.
Click to expand...
If you are not going to force fetch your dog, your dog your choice, then you should box up the collar and put it in the back of the closet. Without force fetch and subsequent collar conditioning there is zero reason for a dog to wear an e-collar as they will not understand the stimulus nor an expected response when you apply pressure/stimulus.
 
Cinch said:
If you are not going to force fetch your dog, your dog your choice, then you should box up the collar and put it in the back of the closet. Without force fetch and subsequent collar conditioning there is zero reason for a dog to wear an e-collar as they will not understand the stimulus nor an expected response when you apply pressure/stimulus.
Click to expand...

Outside of the lab world, e-collars are far more useful than just tools for fetch, in fact I had my FF complete on my current dog for some time before I ever introduced the collar to the process. I've used my collar to reenforce recall training, whoa, down, trash breaking, teaching the dog to quarter, shortening up range in the fields, not to mention occasional behaviour modifications in the home and yard. Telling a guy to box up his e-collar just because he isn't going to use it for FF is just plain wrong.
 
Thinking said:
Outside of the lab world, e-collars are far more useful than just tools for fetch, in fact I had my FF complete on my current dog for some time before I ever introduced the collar to the process. I've used my collar to reenforce recall training, whoa, down, trash breaking, teaching the dog to quarter, shortening up range in the fields, not to mention occasional behaviour modifications in the home and yard. Telling a guy to box up his e-collar just because he isn't going to use it for FF is just plain wrong.
Click to expand...


I disagree with what Cinch says as well.
Yes, you must condition a dog to understand what is expected with an e-collar, but it`s sole purpose is not force-fetch training.

Like you Thinking, I use it for a variety of reasons.
The tone works 100% for recall, a quick nick gets her attention on me when she chooses to ignore, and she's stopped eating dog #### by combining "leave-it" with a zap.

What I like most about this ##### is that quartering and tightening up range don't usually require the e-collar at all. She works pretty close and likes to stay out front. We move down wind and get her to come back up into the breeze, picking up the scent of planted birds.
I don't want to lose the bond of her working with me, or all of that drive and intensity she`s got, by pushing too hard too soon.

I'm not against FF, I just don't think it's the right time for my dog.
 
Thinking said:
Outside of the lab world, e-collars are far more useful than just tools for fetch, in fact I had my FF complete on my current dog for some time before I ever introduced the collar to the process. I've used my collar to reenforce recall training, whoa, down, trash breaking, teaching the dog to quarter, shortening up range in the fields, not to mention occasional behaviour modifications in the home and yard. Telling a guy to box up his e-collar just because he isn't going to use it for FF is just plain wrong.
Click to expand...

You may be surprised to know that even us lowly Lab owners use e-collars for more then just fetch. However, the OP wasn't asking how to stop his dog from pissing on car tires he was asking about training a dog to retrieve to hand and not spit birds. FF is the means by which to do both. I guess as long as the dog is close enough for an ear pinch then collar conditioning isn't necessary. However, I suspect the dog will range out beyond arms length at which point pressure ala nick/burn is required if the dog gives a refusal (I'm not willing to risk hunting a dog on a 50' check cord).

As I stated in my previous post;
Cinch said:
If you are not going to force fetch your dog, your dog your choice, then you should box up the collar and put it in the back of the closet. Without force fetch and subsequent collar conditioning there is zero reason for a dog to wear an e-collar as they will not understand the stimulus nor an expected response when you apply pressure/stimulus.
Click to expand...
Without proper instruction a dog will not understand the stimulus from an e-collar nor know the expected response other then to stop/shut down. As in your own example you FF'd your dog prior to introducing an e-collar. Through the FF process you introduced the concept of pressure and then trained/taught your dog how to turn off (by compliance with known commands) pressure whether via an ear pinch or nick/burn, a critical concept when the dog gives a refusal. To go out and nick/burn a dog until he/she takes an "over", "back", "heel", "sit", etc., without CC is unfair to the dog and a fools errand. And I have yet to find a better method of teaching CC then by first teaching FF.
 
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