Rolling Block 7mm Rebarrelling Options/Advice

[Lahti]

Hello,

I’ve always wanted a rolling block and found one in 7mm (1902 El Salvador) that was cheap but missing upper hand guard and described as poor maybe shootable bore (From JS). I’m going to try it assuming the action is sound, but thought I’d plan ahead.

Desperately want to keep it as is if it’s got ANY sort of accuracy, but if not, I was wondering what sort of barrels would work for it, where to go for that and cartridge options, assuming the mechanism is solid. Ideally I’d put a new old stock identical barrel in 7mm Mauser on it, but failing at that any similar profile barrels/thread patterns to look for that might make the task easier.

I’d prefer a new barrel in any comparable energy caliber (7mm as is, 30-06, 8mm…) that would look just like the old one and fit the existing furniture. Either way I’ll keep all the unmodified old parts so nothings irreversible.

Failing at that, any rebarreling options where I could keep the old parts, not modify the receiver and a new barrel and furniture if need be to just make it shoot accurately. If a garand or Swedish Mauser barrel could thread right in and work so be it.

I’d also happily take any other cartridge ideas that would work out to 100 yards. I’m a handloader and do many military rifle and pistol cartridges. If somehow 7.62 tokarev or 7.62x39 would work with that extractor groove without permanent modification, I’d be all for it.

I’m assuming anything with the same case head/extractor groove and power would be best, like 30-06, 8mm, nearly 6.5 Swedish, etc..?

I’m sadly still a student without my own workshop or endless funds, so any easy to fit on barrel a gunsmith within Nova Scotia could fit would be ideal. I know nothings cheap these days and you get what you pay for, but a new old stock barrel with minimal reaming is more feasible for me than getting a custom barrel blank rifled and lathe turned to fit and all that.

Thank you for reading.

 

[BlackPowderBurner]

You are vastly over estimating the strength of that action, 6.5x55, .30-06 or 8mm would be a good way to have a breech block lodged in your forehead.

 

[tiriaq]

The extractor will handle rimless cartridges, which certainly allows some interesting options. If you handload and can be sure nothing inappropriate is fired, the possibilities are extensive. I wonder if something like .300 Savage might not be a possibility.
The condition of the action is certainly going to be a deciding factor. Has to be tight and mechanically sound.

 

[Lahti]

Very happy I asked then!

My understanding was that for the later rolling blocks around 1900, like this one, that the 7mm Mauser and 8 lebel ones used the same ammunition as the mausers/lebels. I should have clarified I would load on the lighter side of these anyways.
Is even regular 7mm Mauser loaded to those sorts of velocities an issue? Like firing this as is with SAAMI Spec ammunition is a bad idea?

I was 100% thinking in terms of original sorts of loadings. Looking at SAAMI pressures I see that’s a horrible idea especially if I ever part with this rifle for the next person.

New questions… is 7mm Mauser ammo not loaded to max pressures, like PPU safe?
If 7mm is safe, ignoring my horrific Naivety about current pressure ratings for some of those mentioned cartridges, any cartridge recommendations with lower pressures than 7mm Mauser using the same case head that could be considered?

Thank you for your warning

 

[Potashminer]

Your 1902 rifle was likely okay with the loadings then? Made for that level of pressure? Not sure that modern SAAMI Maximum pressure is appropriate, but do not know that. I have a small ring Mauser in 7x57 - made in 1896 - marked as Ludw. Loewe maker - not DWM - looking to fire that one after I get the thing cleaned out. Looking at Lyman 49 and Lyman 50 manuals, they list loadings with pressure levels. For 7x57 (7 mm Mauser) - a Start loading with 175 grain Speer Grand Slam #1643 (likely similar to what original 7 mm used in that era) shows several Start level loadings in the 31,200 to 33,000 C.U.P. level. No clue what SAAMI sets at maximum - in C.U.P. units - Wikipedia says Maximum 46,000 C.U.P. for 7mm Mauser - that Lyman loading data shows "Max" loads 45,700 C.U.P. for those Grand Slam bullets. There is some Start loadings listed with 162 grain Hornady BTSP #2845 as low as 28,300 C.U.P. units pressure. Not seeing lighter pressures, even if jacketed bullets used are lighter weight - down to 120 grain bullets are listed. Perhaps 8 or 10 powders listed, per bullet weight. Also shows down to 21,600 C.U.P. with Start Loads for 160 grain cast bullets - likely Lyman brand mould (?) #287641, bullet sized to .284"

 

[trevj]

You are vastly over estimating the strength of that action, 6.5x55, .30-06 or 8mm would be a good way to have a breech block lodged in your forehead.

Uhhh...Yep!

Think in terms of a loaded down 7mm Mauser, if at all.

Be good to familiarize yourself on the history of the 8mm x 58RD Swede rolling blocks too, and the different loaded ammo that was used in them.

If you are going to rebarrel it, look at stuff like 40-65, 45-70, 38-55, at BP load levels, and forget about modern ammo...

 

[Lahti]

I absolutely try and err on the side of caution to be clear, I'm the sort who thinks even 1 round of 7.62 tokarev through a c96 is as silly as playing russian roulette. The only reason I mentioned those other cartridges is that they share the same shell holder and have similar case heads to work with the extractor which would make any rebarreling easier. I was expecting feedback around staying away from some cartridges or sticking to equal pressures to 7mm Mauser, and not to hand load hot for that either. Was not aware of their reputation for weakness.

I read up on them, my understanding is that the No.5 action/1902's aren't so much weak, as much as have poor gas venting and headspace issues, specifically in 7mm Mauser. This is coupled with the chambers being cut notably long leads to case head separation, causing damage to the rifle. Sounds like even to test fire I will load light, not just factory PPU, then neck size only and stick to lighter loads to be safe. With those precautions, I'm avoiding case head separation with the poor venting, and the action should be adequate for lower pressure 7mm Mauser, similar to how 6.5 swedish loads for Krags should be lighter than for m96's. Feel free to correct if I'm misunderstanding.

With all that in mind, if I do go the rebarreling route is there any cartridges, rifle or pistol that share the same or nearly the same extractor cut which have lower pressures? Like you all have said, it's unwise to rebarrel to something like 30-06 as even if I load light, the next owner might not do their homework. Once saw a US Krag rechambered in .308 at the range, don't want to make a time bomb like that for anyone in the future.

 

[bearhunter]

I had one of those many moons back. Mine was made for Mexico by Remington. Not sure of the date.

I was lucky with this particular rifle as it had been issued but well taken care of and had an excellent bore.

This was close to 45 years ago. I picked up the rifle from a fellow at the San Jose' flea market for a ridiculous low price because many considered them to be only suitable for wall hangers.

Remington built military rolling blocks are not IMHO as robust as their Swedish contract copies.

Even the Swede made rolling blocks gave issues when they were converted from their original 50-70 configuration to the 8x57R for the Danes.

IMHO, the maximum loads to be used in these rifles shouldn't be more than 38,000PSI. Most factory ammo and even military loads were hotter than that, which caused several of the rifles to split their receivers. There is NO GAS ESCAPE in this action and this causes lots of safety concerns as well as maximizes damage during catastrophic failures.

My rifle had a HUGE chamber and an extremely long throat. I don't remember the exact numbers but the bore diameter was also significantly oversize for any of the jacketed bullets that were available at the time.

I resorted to shooting cast bullets with #2 formula. I also had a machinist I associated with at the time open up a mold to a diameter that was .002 larger than the bore slugged.

I even tried shooting paper patched cast bullets of normal dimensions, because the bore was so large and I wanted to get away from lead fouling.

I loaded with several different powders, including FFF black powder, which actually worked really well with the paper patched cast bullets.

All of the bullets I loaded were at least 175 grains if they were jacketed and heavier, close to 190 grains when cast out of the oversize mold.

With 175 jacketed bullets, my favorite load was 42 grains of H4831 and a similar charge of a ball powder which is slower and no hasn't been available for a few decades, H450. I used a filler over both of these loads and at the time standard large rifle primers. These would likely be considered close to maximum (but around 38,000PSI) for this action if in good mechanical condition and tight.

The black powder load was a fireformed case, filled to the base of the neck with FFF powder and slightly compressed when the very long cast lead or paper patched bullets were loaded. This was also a stout load for these rifles but safe in my rifle.

The original military powders used for these cartridges back in 1905 era were FAST in comparison to what we use today.

I managed to pick up a bunch of 1907 dated, Mexican made 7x57 Mauser ammo from Golden State Arms. They had half a crate in their odds and ends locker.

All I can tell you is that the ammo was corrosive, had several hang fires/misfires and when it did go bang, it wasn't accurate. Every case bulged and split when fired. Bullet diameters were consistent around .284.

Dimensionally, it was very similar to SAAMI specs.

OP, if your rifle has a worn bore, consider paper patched, cast bullets with powders such as IMR3031 burn rate and of course a filler between the powder and bullet to keep the reduced charge close to the primers. Dacron padding works well. A one CM square is all you need and weighs nothing.



One thing I will caution the OP on

 

[slug]

I've read that the cartridge isn't a true 7 x 57 Mauser, but a slightly longer one, hence the rifles are often stated to have excess heads pace. With modest loads and neck sizing, things might work well.

 

[cdnrokon]

I have owned many custom built rollers I had them re barreled in 45/70 and shot all lead cast bullets with fl spec Black powder loads
second rifle was in 38/55 and most recent on in 40/50 sharps Straight
built for ease of finding components and low recoil.
I am currently putting together another one on a 7mm smokeless action 1902 mfg
pick a cartridge that you can reload cheaply, and the max psi is below 40,000 I will be finding a cartridge in the 28,000 to 34,000 range based off a rimmed cartridge.

A very good cartridge is the 40/60 Maynard... make them from 30/40 Krag brass. (starline) order a 40 cal 1/16 twist barrel from Green Mountain (www.nine35.ca) get a hold of the gun doctor and see if he can put it together...

 

[bearhunter]

I have owned many custom built rollers I had them re barreled in 45/70 and shot all lead cast bullets with fl spec Black powder loads
second rifle was in 38/55 and most recent on in 40/50 sharps Straight
built for ease of finding components and low recoil.
I am currently putting together another one on a 7mm smokeless action 1902 mfg
pick a cartridge that you can reload cheaply, and the max psi is below 40,000 I will be finding a cartridge in the 28,000 to 34,000 range based off a rimmed cartridge.

A very good cartridge is the 40/60 Maynard... make them from 30/40 Krag brass. (starline) order a 40 cal 1/16 twist barrel from Green Mountain (www.nine35.ca) get a hold of the gun doctor and see if he can put it together...

So what have you done in 7x57???

 

[Why not?]

What about installing a new barrel chambered for 45ACP?

The cartridge head is almost identical to the 7X57, and the pressure would certainly be low enough to be safe.

Ted

 

[Lionel]

I picked one up in 303 British last spring at a guns show. The vendor said it liked heavy bullets, and I'm fairly certain that he
fired it with full power loads.
I won't be doing that as I handload and cast my own.
I also have an old stripped frame that I've had for years that I want to put a muzzleloader barrel on and chamber for 45 Colt.
I haven't slugged the bore, so I'm not certain if that will work. Probably not.
I wouldn't go too high of a pressure for the old Rolling Blocks. Yes, they were a strong action, but that was for the black
powder era of cartridges.
If you handload, then you can customize pretty much anything from mild to wild. I would stay away from wild. Unless you
like explosions happening next to body parts you are fond of.

 

[hickstick_10]

I have one of those 7mm rollers, even came with the bayonet.

I’ve shot boxes of federal 7mm 175 grains through it, it headspaces fine and there’s been no disasters. I wouldn’t hesitate to chamber one for 303 or 30-40 krag, wouldn’t go any hotter then that.

The muzzle end of the bore of these guns had a hard life, as a last resort I’d try counterboring the bore back a bit past the crown and see if that helps with accuracy.

 

[cdnrokon]

I would rather not shoot a 7x57 in a roller that is why I am going to rebarrel in to a rim cartridge in the 35 cal size

 

[Lahti]

I appreciate all the advice, once it arrives I’ll try some of the 7 mm Mauser suggestions to see if I can get it working at all as is, keeping an eye on the brass stretching and peak pressures.

If it is in need of a new barrel, I’ll ensure it’s in a cartridge with low pressure as suggested that can preferably use the same extractor/ejector. I like the .45 acp suggestion, I had thought of that too as the pressure is well below what others have said should be safe. Assuming it needs the new barrel I’ll definitely post what I’m planning here to double check. I’d rather all this talk of dismemberment not come to pass.

 

[mkrnel]

This rifle is commonly referred to as a model of 1902 or the model of 1910 Remington Rolling Block depending on which nation ordered them. It is also known as a No. 5 Smokeless action Rolling Block.

These rifles were mostly manufactured in 7x57mm Mauser for South American countries around the turn of the century they were also often chambered in 8mm French Lebel, 7.62x54mmR Russian, .303 British, .30-40 Krag and 7.65x53 Mauser.

This model has screws in a lower configuration than earlier Rolling Block rifles and was in production right up until WW2.

When Remington introduced a No. 5 Rolling Block essentially it was the same as the No. 1, but produced of much better steel designed for smokeless powder cartridges such as the 7mm Mauser, with some being chambered for rounds like .30-30, .30-40 and even .30-06.

In fact, it can be said the Rolling Block is solely responsible for pulling Remington's fat out of the fire. Remington and patent licence holders went on to build an estimated 15 million of them in total over many models.

And these 7x57mm rolling block Remington rifles were in service at the same time as the 7mm Mausers (M93, M95 and M98) were in wide use and used the exact same ammo and it was also loaded much hotter back then then to what it is now. A friend of mine used to own one in 7x57mm and he used it for decades as his deer rifle shooting factory ammo without any problems. I have also never heard of a factory made 7x57mm one exploding either.

Mauser originally developed the 7x57mm Mauser around 1892 for military use. It first appeared in Model 1893 and 1895 Mauser rifles, and eventually the famous Model 98, along with many other sporting rifles of domestic and foreign manufacture in a variety of action types. At the time of its development the 7×57mm Mauser was a very high-performance smokeless-powder cartridge.

It has proven an exceptional sporting cartridge that is efficient, accurate and capable of taking most big game species, and at one time popular for taking elephants by hunters like Karamojo Bell who killed over 800 with the standard military FMJ load of the time, a 1893 pattern standard military 11.2-gram (172.8 gr) grain round-nosed full metal jacket load at 2400fps from a 29" barrel.

In 1893 this ballistic performance made it the high-performance service cartridge champion of its day when compared to other 1893 pattern smokeless-powder cartridges such as the 8mm Lebel, .303 British, and 8×50mmR Mannlicher.

In 1913, following the lead of French and German Army commands in developing the spitzer or pointed-tip bullet shape, the Spanish ordnance authorities issued a even hotter redesigned 7×57mm cartridge with a spitzer bullet (7 mm Cartucho para Mauser Tipo S).

It was loaded with a 9-gram (138.9 gr) spitzer bullet fired at a muzzle velocity of 850 m/s (2,789 ft/s) with 3,251 J (2,398 ft⋅lbf) muzzle energy from a 589 mm (23.2 in) long barrel.

It had a maximum range of 3,700 m (4,046 yd). The new spitzer bullet style was partially responsible for the cartridge's improved performance as it significantly reduced air drag within normal combat ranges and withstood higher accelerations in the barrel.

Reverse engineering the trajectory from the previous sentence indicates a ballistic coefficient (G1 BC) of approximately 0.33.

After that military ball ammunition loaded with a 10.5-gram (162.0 gr) spitzer bullet fired at a muzzle velocity of 750 m/s (2,461 ft/s) with 2,953 J (2,178 ft⋅lbf) muzzle energy from a 589 mm (23.2 in) long barrel became available.

Besides a pointed nose this projectile also had a boat tail to reduce drag. It had a maximum range of 5,000 m (5,468 yd). Reverse engineering the trajectory from the previous sentence indicates a ballistic coefficient (G1 BC) of approximately 0.54.

Its mild recoil and low muzzle blast give it an almost polite nature. Industry maximum pressure is 46,000 cup, however, most of today’s standard pressure factory loads are well below this limit due to the many well used and abused Mauser Model 93 and 95, Remington Rolling Block and other rifles that are of lessor strength compared to newer and more modern made firearms.

Concerns regarding the early Mauser rifles such as the models 93 and 95 and Remington military issue smokeless rolling block rifles are misplaced, as the original ammunition issued with the M93 Spanish Mauser produced an average pressure of 50,370 CUP in all those rifles and they were all proofed for a load at 125% the standard military load of the period.

During the Second Boer War in South Africa, British authorities were obliged to re-evaluate rifle and ammunition design and tactics after facing Boer sharpshooters and snipers armed with Mauser Model 1893 rifles and Mauser Model 1895 rifles firing 7×57mm rounds with withering effectiveness, easily outranging the .303 British cartridge as regards accurate long-range fire. The .303 British cartridge at that time was still using cordite propellant, in contrast to the Mauser's higher-performance ballistite type smokeless powder.

In modern commercial rifles including the Mauser 98, Winchester Model 70, Remington Model 700, Ruger 77 and rifles of similar strength, it is safe to load the 7x57 to 50,000-55,000 cup.