Romanian contract VZ 24 - russian captured?
- Thread starter RussianBear
- Start date
If you could post a picture, they would be interesting to see.
Generally, the so called Russian captured vz24 rifles I've seen, have come from Romania, as they have had them in stock since ww2. Typical eastern block trademark refinishing with copious amounts of cosmoline, deep salt blueing and liberal use of the belt sander and electropencil, give them a Russian capture look. Many have newly made maple stocks, with "Copșa Mică" c and m in a circle, cartusches, as evidence of their Romanian refurbishment.
Generally, the so called Russian captured vz24 rifles I've seen, have come from Romania, as they have had them in stock since ww2. Typical eastern block trademark refinishing with copious amounts of cosmoline, deep salt blueing and liberal use of the belt sander and electropencil, give them a Russian capture look. Many have newly made maple stocks, with "Copșa Mică" c and m in a circle, cartusches, as evidence of their Romanian refurbishment.
For me is a great mistery. Outside look Russian job. I asked fellow Romanians but they have no idea. I think that the Importer only can solve this mystery. There is a lot of confusion, some say Ruski job ,some think is Rommy.
They all came from Ukraine same time as Lever arms brought all their SVT 40, SKS, German Mausers and Star pistols. Soviets ended up with loads of Romanian equipment after Romanians were pounded to pieces at Battle of Stalingrad. In order to encircle Axis troops in Stalingrad Soviets choose to strike at the weakest link in the chain of Axis defences it was Romanian troops.
Thanks for info. Concerning Stalingad battles ,in my childhood, I was talking with solders from Stalingrad in my Romanian village. They told me that Romanians does not have anti-tank guns in suficient number and in the front of Soviet tank offensive they was helpless. Second no reason to fight that war: if the war was win by Germany they will receive just a shake hand and sent home.
I don't think they are Russian refurbs because
-russians didn't make new stocks for captured rifles
-don't think they would have differentiated between different 98 mausers. I've seen many Russian capture k98 rifles with vz24 and gew98 straight bolts
- the grinding off of receiver ring crests/markings is not seen on any RC k98's. The Russians would have no reason to do that. But Romania's communist regime would have reason to do so… to remove the royal cypher, of a previous regime.
- no "x" mark on receiver ring of vz24 rifles
- as I mentioned before the newly manufactured vz24 stocks have Romanian Copșa Mică Cugir, arsenal markings.
Based on the observations I've made, I'm certain that these rifles were refurbished in Romania. Now if they were surplussed, and ended up in Ukraine, and then they made it to Canada, that's possible also.
-russians didn't make new stocks for captured rifles
-don't think they would have differentiated between different 98 mausers. I've seen many Russian capture k98 rifles with vz24 and gew98 straight bolts
- the grinding off of receiver ring crests/markings is not seen on any RC k98's. The Russians would have no reason to do that. But Romania's communist regime would have reason to do so… to remove the royal cypher, of a previous regime.
- no "x" mark on receiver ring of vz24 rifles
- as I mentioned before the newly manufactured vz24 stocks have Romanian Copșa Mică Cugir, arsenal markings.
Based on the observations I've made, I'm certain that these rifles were refurbished in Romania. Now if they were surplussed, and ended up in Ukraine, and then they made it to Canada, that's possible also.
Those rifles did not come from Ukraine. They were also never available in Ukraine for civilian market and I have seen many kinds of odd ducks there . IMO they were refurbished in Romania for reasons listed above. For the same reasons it is impossible for them to originate from Ukraine.
And there is no such thing as "Russian capture mark".
And there is no such thing as "Russian capture mark".
They definitely had some use for them, here is mine true "Russian capture" with crest intact, German bolt and Soviet repair facility marking "ПАМ-13". Note she was not refurbished, so most likely they dumped them to Romania, Czechoslovakia or any country to be liberated from evil capitalists. Some parts or rifles probably remained in USSR as VZ24 bolts showed up on German K98k during refurbishing. But never barreled receivers... Go figure why.
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Horilka, that's a really nice rifle!
The Romanians ground the Czech lion crests also. I have one with the exact same ground marks as on my Carol Crest vz24.
Another thought is, the vz24 rifles that Lever Arms sold, came with Romanian ammo pouches, and vz24 bayonet. Surely if they had been Russian captures, the accesories would not have been distributed by correct type. Why bother doing that? They are interchangeable.
The Romanians ground the Czech lion crests also. I have one with the exact same ground marks as on my Carol Crest vz24.
Another thought is, the vz24 rifles that Lever Arms sold, came with Romanian ammo pouches, and vz24 bayonet. Surely if they had been Russian captures, the accesories would not have been distributed by correct type. Why bother doing that? They are interchangeable.
Soviets usually did not bother with foreign firearms.
I recall Thompsons were sold with what they had been stored - German WW2 bradbag straps... $200 for a dewat, nobody wanted them... Every Tommy came with German strap, I guess they figured - why not, it would work fine as sling...
Actually I looked at my archive and still have pictures. This is the picture of the set I sold in Ukraine in 2010:
At the same time ZB30s came in transit crates with all spare magazines, spare barrel, parts and accessories... While crate is definitely Soviet, the content of original crate was still there. This is the one I sold in 2010 as well, sorry for poor camera pics. I can only guess significant amount of them was captured in unissued condition in crates.
I recall Thompsons were sold with what they had been stored - German WW2 bradbag straps... $200 for a dewat, nobody wanted them... Every Tommy came with German strap, I guess they figured - why not, it would work fine as sling...
Actually I looked at my archive and still have pictures. This is the picture of the set I sold in Ukraine in 2010:
At the same time ZB30s came in transit crates with all spare magazines, spare barrel, parts and accessories... While crate is definitely Soviet, the content of original crate was still there. This is the one I sold in 2010 as well, sorry for poor camera pics. I can only guess significant amount of them was captured in unissued condition in crates.
Soviets usually did not bother with foreign firearms.
I recall Thompsons were sold with what they had been stored - German WW2 bradbag straps... $200 for a dewat, nobody wanted them... Every Tommy came with German strap, I guess they figured - why not, it would work fine as sling...
Actually I looked at my archive and still have pictures. This is the picture of the set I sold in Ukraine in 2010:
At the same time ZB30s came in transit crates with all spare magazines, spare barrel, parts and accessories... While crate is definitely Soviet, the content of original crate was still there. This is the one I sold in 2010 as well, sorry for poor camera pics. I can only guess significant amount of them was captured in unissued condition in crates.
WOW,those ZB was the machine gun of the Romanian army.
Soviets usually did not bother with foreign firearms.
I recall Thompsons were sold with what they had been stored - German WW2 bradbag straps... $200 for a dewat, nobody wanted them... Every Tommy came with German strap, I guess they figured - why not, it would work fine as sling...
Actually I looked at my archive and still have pictures. This is the picture of the set I sold in Ukraine in 2010:
At the same time ZB30s came in transit crates with all spare magazines, spare barrel, parts and accessories... While crate is definitely Soviet, the content of original crate was still there. This is the one I sold in 2010 as well, sorry for poor camera pics. I can only guess significant amount of them was captured in unissued condition in crates.
Cool to see a picture of the ZB30 with it's original kit.
There were several types of ZB30 among the MGs stored in Ukraine, among them most common were two types: Romanian contract (with crest scrubbed by Romanians before they were captured) and "regular" ZBs with no crest. ZB26 and ZB30 were pretty common with Waffen SS. They sourced directly from CZ. The one I had had no crest.
These are Romanian Stalingrad capture:
And here are some ZBs mixed in VZ24s from Romanian army:
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