- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Took it out to the range. Loaded five rounds of greek HXP. On the fourth round, had to beat the bolt open.
Ross problem
- Thread starter John Sukey
- Start date
Ross Problem
John
1905 Ross or 1910? Does it have an "E" or "LC" marked on the barrel in the chamber area?
You might want to send a PM to SMELLIE on this one, but he will probably see it here.
Some of the early 1910 Ross rifles suffered from having a burly, well muscled workman who fitted the barrels onto the action. With the tight tolerances specified at first for the rifles, when really tightened onto the action, the barrel compressed a slight amount in the chamber area, squeezing it slightly. Most of these were changed over, but there always seems a few that get missed, and with the Ross, you should never say "never" as the variations and changes are many.
.
John
1905 Ross or 1910? Does it have an "E" or "LC" marked on the barrel in the chamber area?
You might want to send a PM to SMELLIE on this one, but he will probably see it here.
Some of the early 1910 Ross rifles suffered from having a burly, well muscled workman who fitted the barrels onto the action. With the tight tolerances specified at first for the rifles, when really tightened onto the action, the barrel compressed a slight amount in the chamber area, squeezing it slightly. Most of these were changed over, but there always seems a few that get missed, and with the Ross, you should never say "never" as the variations and changes are many.
.
The Ross rifle suffered from having essentially a match chamber head spacing. Combine that with a very loose spec (wide variation of suppliers and differ5nt standards) British ammo from WW1 they had issues with getting stuck. The solution was to enlarge the chamber to solve that issue.
Saying that, I have had a few and will tell you to clean your chamber out, you most likely have a dirty chamber, a flake(s) of powder, etc. The battery will not work well with dirt/powder, etc in it. Save your old toothbrushes to clean it out.
Saying that, I have had a few and will tell you to clean your chamber out, you most likely have a dirty chamber, a flake(s) of powder, etc. The battery will not work well with dirt/powder, etc in it. Save your old toothbrushes to clean it out.
I don't have a pressure gun or strain gauges, so I can't say what pressures the HXP ammo is running...... but I do know that their beautiful brass tends to stretch a mite too much for comfort in a LE. I am lubing the insides of case-necks, keeping my brass trimmed and everything else, and I am still getting only 2 or 3 reloads before the web lets go. It's thin and it's hot. With Defence Industries brass, I can't say how many reloads I can get in a Ross: I have a couple boxes here now on their 15th firing; that's a BIG difference.
I think if you had a bit of crud in the chamber, a small chamber and a hot round, all at the same time, it would not be difficult to produce this situation. Ambient temperature also can really increase the pressure of ammo if the stuff sits in the Sun too long: as much as 40% increase over spec. How hot was it when you were shooting, John?
Although I tend to believe that the Ross Rifle is very close to a gift from Providence, even I will admit that they didn't have all that much primary extraction power. A tiny bit of grease on the locking lugs, just as with a Garand, can slick things up nicely. As well, a bit of Lubriplate 105 in the cam track of the rotating bolt-head will improve things.
Please keep us informed on this matter, John.
Hope this helps.
.
I think if you had a bit of crud in the chamber, a small chamber and a hot round, all at the same time, it would not be difficult to produce this situation. Ambient temperature also can really increase the pressure of ammo if the stuff sits in the Sun too long: as much as 40% increase over spec. How hot was it when you were shooting, John?
Although I tend to believe that the Ross Rifle is very close to a gift from Providence, even I will admit that they didn't have all that much primary extraction power. A tiny bit of grease on the locking lugs, just as with a Garand, can slick things up nicely. As well, a bit of Lubriplate 105 in the cam track of the rotating bolt-head will improve things.
Please keep us informed on this matter, John.
Hope this helps.
.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Well, it's a MkII as far as I can determine. Has the rear sight on the barrel and also a reciever sight
Issue date is 1912. Issued to Four different units.
My other Ross must have damm near been issued to almost every regiment in the Canadian army going by all the struck out marks.
Now what I don't understand is why the first three rounds extracted with no problem, while the 4th one stuck. This is factory ammo NOT reloads. I will try lubing the places mentioned, but wonder if that is the problem.
At the same time I bought these two, I ran out of money for a third with a very unusual rear sight adjustment. Elevation was adjusted by turning a ring around the barrel at the rear of the sight.
How hot was it whenn I shot the rifle? Only 90F
Cleaning the chamber out? I always clean the chamber using a wire brush and a flexible cleaning rod before going to a solid rod for the bore.
If I remember correctly it was found the best way to extract the cases when in the trenches was the application of an ammunition BOOT.
Found it rather funny that Ross sold the factory after the war and moved to Florida.
Issue date is 1912. Issued to Four different units.
My other Ross must have damm near been issued to almost every regiment in the Canadian army going by all the struck out marks.
Now what I don't understand is why the first three rounds extracted with no problem, while the 4th one stuck. This is factory ammo NOT reloads. I will try lubing the places mentioned, but wonder if that is the problem.
At the same time I bought these two, I ran out of money for a third with a very unusual rear sight adjustment. Elevation was adjusted by turning a ring around the barrel at the rear of the sight.
How hot was it whenn I shot the rifle? Only 90F
Cleaning the chamber out? I always clean the chamber using a wire brush and a flexible cleaning rod before going to a solid rod for the bore.
If I remember correctly it was found the best way to extract the cases when in the trenches was the application of an ammunition BOOT.
Found it rather funny that Ross sold the factory after the war and moved to Florida.
Sir Charles made a "killing" off the Canadian government(bad pun intended) and moved on. I like the Ross rifle, it is very accurrate generally and smooth to operate. But it was never a good design for a combat rifle. Sam Hughes, Minister of Militia, early on in WW1 was a close friend of Ross's and his biggest booster. The British government refused to allow Canada to manufacture Lee Enfields in Canada so there was a strong desire to equip our troops with a Canadian built rifle. Canadian First Division soldiers made a magnificent stand at Ypres during the first German attack aided by mustard gas. It must have been a bad feeling to be stuck out in the salient, under constant German artillery fire, fighting off attack after attack, knowing our noble allies the French had broken and run from their flanks. Accounts of the battle related that the best marksmen shot while two or three comrades fought to clear jammed rifles for them. After the battle, First Division records state that over 1400 Canadian soldiers threw their Ross rifles away and picked up Lee Enfields from the field. A classic example of politicians and war profiteers making decisions they had no business making. One battalion commander, Arthur Curry, eventually to become General Curry, Canadian Corp commander said something to the effect that," to force the men to go into combat again armed with the Ross would be criminal".
I would love to get a Mark III. After WWII my father bought one in a pawn shop in London England and brought it home. It sat on our wall for as long as I can remember, then one day, some 40 years ago, it was gone. He traded it for a No1 Enfield. I was so mad. Last year I made queries and found the rifle. It's in Oklahoma and the owner won't part with it. I would still love to have one, if not that specific rifle, as it is a part of history. I wouldn't fire it, display only. (Also I do have a Ross bayonette coming I bought on line).
If you experience this again, try letting the rifle cool for about 20 min. Then try the bolt. If it opens easily or much easier, then you have likely the symptom where the bolt is slightly deformed where it contacts the stop during opening. Mine usually takes a dozen or more shots before it locks up like a vault. I just set it aside for a bit to cool with the last fired case still in the chamber, then it opens easy as pie. Definitely not going to try any fixes, as this is a perfect example of one of the Ross' most deadly flaws. Definitely not a Ross "bashing", just reality.
Cheers
Jaguar
Cheers
Jaguar
I for one think the Ross got a bad rap. It is pretty common knowledge that the rifles that first saw action were jamming due to ammo that was not designed to be used in the rifle in the first place and chambers that were already on the tight side. Try this with a M-1 Garand and see what happens. As for it not liking dirt, which it does not. Does anyone remember the M-16?
Don`t forget this was the first time the MK III saw action and it was put in service without any trials of any kind.
Once the chambers were opened up and most of the ammo supply issues got straitened out, a lot of solderers were quite happy with it.
The main complaints were that they were too long (30.5" barrel), bayonets not the best, and the sights could get buggered up.
Sounds like a lot of other military rifles that went on to be great.
Don`t forget this was the first time the MK III saw action and it was put in service without any trials of any kind.
Once the chambers were opened up and most of the ammo supply issues got straitened out, a lot of solderers were quite happy with it.
The main complaints were that they were too long (30.5" barrel), bayonets not the best, and the sights could get buggered up.
Sounds like a lot of other military rifles that went on to be great.
jaguar, You could try cleaning up the bolt head or installing another one. But your problem sounds more like a dirty or rough chamber than the bolt head. I have been shooting these a long time, and I agree if something is not right they are hard to get open. The only time I have had extraction stiffness is when there was something amiss with the ammo or chamber.
Last edited:
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Ax, while I appreciate the fact that the ammunition was a problem in the Ross, the Lee Enfield handled it without any problems. While the Ross is very accurate, the design is flawed.
Now to the M16, It wasn't dirt, but rather the fact that the "Whiz Kids" decided they could save a few pennies by not chroming the bore, and the Army deciding to load the ammunition with ball powder instead of the flake powder it was designed for.
Add to that, initialy NOT issuing cleaning kits.
Now if you want to talk about a real disaster. The SA80 comes to mind. The faults were endless.
You could stop the bolt by squesing the reciever with your fingers
The magazines were so bad you could have a stoppage of a round BEHIND the bolt
Bits kept falling off the buttstock and troops were actualy issued with Airfix glue to put the bits back on
To make the rifle cycle properly you had to move the selector switch to full auto, BUT on the LMG version you had to keep the switch in semi.It only took the war office 20 years to find out they had a problem and take "Immediate action " to fix it by giving the rifles to the germans who jacked up the front sight and ran a rifle under it, since the British had closed their armouries.
The first Gulf War. The SA80's were initialy given toi the front line troops and the L1A1's were relegated to rear echelon types. That was quickly reversed, since the SA80's didn't work in the sand.
Now to the M16, It wasn't dirt, but rather the fact that the "Whiz Kids" decided they could save a few pennies by not chroming the bore, and the Army deciding to load the ammunition with ball powder instead of the flake powder it was designed for.
Add to that, initialy NOT issuing cleaning kits.
Now if you want to talk about a real disaster. The SA80 comes to mind. The faults were endless.
You could stop the bolt by squesing the reciever with your fingers
The magazines were so bad you could have a stoppage of a round BEHIND the bolt
Bits kept falling off the buttstock and troops were actualy issued with Airfix glue to put the bits back on
To make the rifle cycle properly you had to move the selector switch to full auto, BUT on the LMG version you had to keep the switch in semi.It only took the war office 20 years to find out they had a problem and take "Immediate action " to fix it by giving the rifles to the germans who jacked up the front sight and ran a rifle under it, since the British had closed their armouries.
The first Gulf War. The SA80's were initialy given toi the front line troops and the L1A1's were relegated to rear echelon types. That was quickly reversed, since the SA80's didn't work in the sand.
Whiz Kids ARE a problem indeed, aren't they? Between Whiz Kids and contractural "fairness", our pal Jammin' Jenny (aka Matty Mattell) ended up with a bad rep in Viet-Nam, an ugly lump on her right cheek and 2 pounds of buckshot and plastic poured into her butt. What started off as a nice little rifle got turned into something with the weight of an SMLE and the punch of a gopher gun. Remington developed the ammo for the .223 but the big contract to make the stuff was handed to Winchester because it was "their turn" for a big contract. Remington used IMR powder, Winchester used Ball which was made up with far too much flame-retardant. Result was a disaster. Canadian ammo worked fine in them because it was loaded with IMR powder. Canada was selling the US about $300,000,000 a year at that time, almost all of it 81mm tubes and 5.56 ammo.
I think your problem might have been a combination, John: hot round + 90F + minimum chamber, possibly even a tight bore thrown in. Really sorry to hear that it happened; I much prefer to hear about Rosses working properly. But the HXP stuff can run very hot. It is not Mark VII specs at all, running a heavy BT bullet. I have used it in a couple of 1910s and will certainly say that it can shoot..... and that we had no troubles.... and that the plates went down fast enough.... but recoil was noticeably heavier than with my test load, which is only slightly under Mark VII spec.
As to "the one that got away", I have its mate (heavily Bubba'd) here. It is a very early Mark II, date on the stock is 1906. Rear sight looks much like that "Lange" sight that Fritz was using on the Gew '98. The idea is that you zero the sleeve, then do your adjustments with the regular sight, using the standard notches. If you want a tiny bit more elevation, you rotate the sleeve, which allows you to increase the sight-in range for your rifle in 5-yard increments (on the sleeve) or as little as ONE yard, the sleeve numbers being far enough apart that you can do this. BTW, these early Rosses were chambered for .303, allright, but they had .300 bores and some of them had VERY deep chambers. I always segregate the brass from the really old ones.
Ross's factory was seized by the Gummint in 1917 and Ross was out like a used dishrag. The plant was used for making the handful of Huots which were built, then turned into North American Arms and given a contract to make the M1911 pistol for the US. A handful of those were produced..... and I really want one but happen to be several grand short at the moment. A Huot would be nice, too, come to think of it......
Ross was paid off after the war, but only after some very high-powered lawyers pointed out that the Government has no legal right to take lawful property away from its lawful owners, without compensating them. Ross had built the plant largely out of his own pocket. This is part of the reason that they always make a "law" today BEFORE stealing from you.
Whatever money Ross got, it was nowhere near enough to compensate him for 16 years of headaches, interference, Government incompetence, bungling and recrimination. The fabled 82 design changes to the Mark II Ross ALL were the results of orders from the Standing Small Arms Committee, as was the rejection of the Mark III Short Rifle which was constructed because the troops asked for it: the long rifle remained in production because Borden's Government insisted on it. I don't blame Ross for retiring to Florida one little bit: he earned it!
Anyway, John, do hope your problem is cleared up. Do let us know.
.
I think your problem might have been a combination, John: hot round + 90F + minimum chamber, possibly even a tight bore thrown in. Really sorry to hear that it happened; I much prefer to hear about Rosses working properly. But the HXP stuff can run very hot. It is not Mark VII specs at all, running a heavy BT bullet. I have used it in a couple of 1910s and will certainly say that it can shoot..... and that we had no troubles.... and that the plates went down fast enough.... but recoil was noticeably heavier than with my test load, which is only slightly under Mark VII spec.
As to "the one that got away", I have its mate (heavily Bubba'd) here. It is a very early Mark II, date on the stock is 1906. Rear sight looks much like that "Lange" sight that Fritz was using on the Gew '98. The idea is that you zero the sleeve, then do your adjustments with the regular sight, using the standard notches. If you want a tiny bit more elevation, you rotate the sleeve, which allows you to increase the sight-in range for your rifle in 5-yard increments (on the sleeve) or as little as ONE yard, the sleeve numbers being far enough apart that you can do this. BTW, these early Rosses were chambered for .303, allright, but they had .300 bores and some of them had VERY deep chambers. I always segregate the brass from the really old ones.
Ross's factory was seized by the Gummint in 1917 and Ross was out like a used dishrag. The plant was used for making the handful of Huots which were built, then turned into North American Arms and given a contract to make the M1911 pistol for the US. A handful of those were produced..... and I really want one but happen to be several grand short at the moment. A Huot would be nice, too, come to think of it......
Ross was paid off after the war, but only after some very high-powered lawyers pointed out that the Government has no legal right to take lawful property away from its lawful owners, without compensating them. Ross had built the plant largely out of his own pocket. This is part of the reason that they always make a "law" today BEFORE stealing from you.
Whatever money Ross got, it was nowhere near enough to compensate him for 16 years of headaches, interference, Government incompetence, bungling and recrimination. The fabled 82 design changes to the Mark II Ross ALL were the results of orders from the Standing Small Arms Committee, as was the rejection of the Mark III Short Rifle which was constructed because the troops asked for it: the long rifle remained in production because Borden's Government insisted on it. I don't blame Ross for retiring to Florida one little bit: he earned it!
Anyway, John, do hope your problem is cleared up. Do let us know.
.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Smellie, considering it's gonna hit 102F next week , it may be a while before I take it out again though I did give the chamber the wire brush treatment.
Maybe the Beaumont or the Kropatrchek will be the next one I take out. OR one of the two Swiss Vetterli's, or the Danish Rolling block or the Spanish one.
If I had the money I could shoot a different one every day of the year.
Friends have been asking me to take out the Lewis again. Problem, it ONLY likes HXP
though I did give the chamber the wire brush treatment.Maybe the Beaumont or the Kropatrchek will be the next one I take out. OR one of the two Swiss Vetterli's, or the Danish Rolling block or the Spanish one.
If I had the money I could shoot a different one every day of the year.
Friends have been asking me to take out the Lewis again. Problem, it ONLY likes HXP
John, I hope the next time you take her out things go better.
Thanks smellie for mentioning Sir Charles. Seeing as you know more than I can ever hope to, and someone might even listen. I was hoping you would be the one pointing out that the Lee Enfield was also having a crap load of trouble with the same ammo that the Ross was. It did better than the Ross, but it had a larger chamber. As for the Ross being a flawed design. I agree that primary extraction is less on any strait pull rifle. The Ross however is essentially an improved version of the M-95 Steyr Mannlicher action which served Austria and Hungary well as their primary infantry rifle during WWI.
It took me a little while to remember where I saw it.
Here is part of a report on the ....LEE ENFIELD.... in II Corps dated Apr. 6th 1915
"with the majority of the rifles it is impossible to fire rapid",
"the extractor does not work when the bolt lever has been raised",
"the breech not fitted to the Mk.VII S.A.A.
"The extractor is too weak and fails to grip the rim of the cartridge", .....
It a wonder any gun worked with that ammo.
Thanks smellie for mentioning Sir Charles. Seeing as you know more than I can ever hope to, and someone might even listen. I was hoping you would be the one pointing out that the Lee Enfield was also having a crap load of trouble with the same ammo that the Ross was. It did better than the Ross, but it had a larger chamber. As for the Ross being a flawed design. I agree that primary extraction is less on any strait pull rifle. The Ross however is essentially an improved version of the M-95 Steyr Mannlicher action which served Austria and Hungary well as their primary infantry rifle during WWI.
It took me a little while to remember where I saw it.
Here is part of a report on the ....LEE ENFIELD.... in II Corps dated Apr. 6th 1915
"with the majority of the rifles it is impossible to fire rapid",
"the extractor does not work when the bolt lever has been raised",
"the breech not fitted to the Mk.VII S.A.A.
"The extractor is too weak and fails to grip the rim of the cartridge", .....
It a wonder any gun worked with that ammo.
Last edited:
