Ross Sniper Rifles

[buffdog]

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SMELLIE and I have often had a discussion on the "sporterized" Ross rifles that are seen on the Forum, at Gun Shows, and are otherwise found. When the Ross was " exchanged" for the SMLE rifles, they were still retained for the use of the Snipers.

In looking at a lot of pictures of Canadian Snipers, a very large percentage of the pictures have Ross Rifles with the forestock cut down to just ahead of the middle band. While I was researching some War Trophies lately, I found these two pictures. One is a WW2 picture and the other is the Regimental Museum. Both of these WWI Sniper Rifles have the forestock cut off.





One premise we kick back and forth is that many of the Ross rifles were modified at a Unit level to provide more accurate rifles for the short to medium ranges that were typical in between trenches. Something like a "Designated Marksman" rifle of today. The workmanship seems to be too good for the typical "basement Bubba" and the fore-ends are remarkably similar in style.

The other side of this is that many of the Ross Rifles were Factory Sporterized by English Trade Gunmakers after they became surplus. These rifles have the usual Proof Marks on them.

BUT, there are a lot of "sporterized" Ross Rifles out there WITHOUT the standard English Proof Marks on them too. It would seem to indicate that these rifles were NOT modified in England as British Proof Laws are very explicit.

An interesting Enigma. Anyone have any thoughts on this, pro or con?
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[Tinman204]

I agree with you theory in this topic.

As you know I have his 1915 Ross MkIII with the wood cut just in front of the band. The barrel is full length and it lacks any British proof marks.

The stock has all of the unit marks removed except the serial number and DOM. It looks identical to the marksmens rifle pictured in the Ross rifle story.

It is in my opinion that many of the "Bubbas" are actually field modified snipers rifles.

 

[tiriaq]

Who knows? If these rifles are indeed ex-snipers, then they must have been turned in, and held in storage until eventually disposed of as surplus. Would field modified rifles have been retained? How many rifles were altered, but never fitted with telescopic sights? Survival rate becomes an issue.

 

[Lee Enfield]

I agree with you theory in this topic.

As you know I have his 1915 Ross MkIII with the wood cut just in front of the band. The barrel is full length and it lacks any British proof marks.

The stock has all of the unit marks removed except the serial number and DOM. It looks identical to the marksmens rifle pictured in the Ross rifle story.

It is in my opinion that many of the "Bubbas" are actually field modified snipers rifles.

Do they show signs of period scope mounts?

If not I believe there is a lot of wish full thinking going on....if there are signs of period scope mounts, I believe that you may be justifying some more research.

I have never seen a period photo of a "sporterized" Ross sniper which was not equipped with a scope.

If you have a photo that shows a Ross rifle in theater which has been sporterized, please share.

 

[Blastattack]

It's worth noting that not all snipers or sniper's rifles were issued with telescopic sights. The greatest sniper of all time only had the iron sights of his Mosin Nagant. Our modern view of a sniper rifle is one with a telescopic sight, however early sniper rifles were simply extraordinarily accurate rack rifles issued to very talented marksmen.

 

[Ax.338]

According to Glenn Iriam, His father, WWI Scout sniper Frank Iriam (In the Trenches) often used an open sighted Ross for sniping.

 

[Lee Enfield]

It's worth noting that not all snipers or sniper's rifles were issued with telescopic sights. The greatest sniper of all time only had the iron sights of his Mosin Nagant. Our modern view of a sniper rifle is one with a telescopic sight, however early sniper rifles were simply extraordinarily accurate rack rifles issued to very talented marksmen.

Much/Most? of his "sniping" occurred with a soumi SMG.

 

[RRCo.]

Frank Iriam mentioned in his book that he was issued with a couple of 1917 dated Ross MkIIIs for sniping purposes in 1917 or 1918. He cut them down himself he said, including cutting off the muzzle bands by splitting them with a knife. The stocks he cut ahead of the band like the rifles shown here. He was surprised by the 1917 dates on the rifles as he thought production had stopped by then. He mentioned having scopes fitted sometimes by the unit armourer also.

The only way to find out if a rifle was cut down for use in the trenches would be if it came with a written record or a plausible story. That or check it for pollen from that part of the world, but that only indicates it went there, not that it was cut down there!

 

[JTF#]

here is a ross for you i was just about to list on the EE before i seen your post. it has the cut back stock and it had the upper handguard that was cracked in half but for some reason still has the nose cap. it has the typical English markings but if they cut all there guns down why would the leave the nose cap?

 

[smellie]

CRB 2547: Canadian Ross Rifle taken over by the Royal Navy in World War One and issued to the Royal Marines Light Infantry from their training base at Crombie. Might we have a nice, clear close-up of the RIGHT side of the Butt? That is where the original Canadian markings should be. Also check under the WRIST of the stock for a small circular marking with a NUMBER: CEF 16 is an example I have here, also PHAB-1 and PHAB-2.

I would suggest that this rifle was surplused after the FIRST World War, at which time the DCP Canadian Proof marking still was accepted as equal to the GP and BNP markings.

I think it entirely likely that the work was done here, after the rifle was sold as surplus.

BTW, there are lots of photos out there of Ross Rifles with cut fore-ends being used at the Front. It was a standard conversion of the period and was referred to as a "Stripped Ross". I have a couple here, but Steve's is much prettier, so I won't detract from his by posting mine.

By far the majority of sniping at the Front was done by Rosses without telescopes. The Warner & Swayze scope cost more than the rifle and was in VERY short supply once the US came into the War in April of 1917. Besides, if you had good eyes and a half-minute rifle (as many Rosses prove to be, once fed consistent ammunition), you didn't need a scope for 500 and under. Real First World War snipers definitely had good eyesight. I once went out shooting with my 1907 SMLE I*** and my range buddy, who had been a Sniper in the Newfoundland Army in the Great War. He was 4 days short of 83 at the time and shot my BUTT off..... and did it with my rifle! There might have been 50 years between us, but Jack Snow still was the MASTER of the SMLE for quick and nasty work.

 

[BadgerDog]

For additional research ...

An "all matching" 1915 Ross MKIII sniper rifle serial #223 complete with its matching Warner and Swasey scope No. 18, 1913 patent. The stock is also stamped "SCOPE NO 18" and the scope base on the rifle is also stamped "18". The original tooled leather case for the scope is C-Broad Arrowed marked and stamped with both the scope serial number (18) and the rifle number (223).

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

This sniper rifle is from the first 250 batch ordered by the Canadian Government and being "SCOPE NO 18", it would have been very early in the production run of these rare rifles, with not very many surviving all these years.

To view the Knowledge Library entry and 227 pic photo montage, check here:

1915 M10 Ross MkIII* Sniper Rifle Serial #223http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=413-1915-M10-Ross-MkIII*-Sniper-Rifle

Also discussed in the The Ross Rifle Collectors Forumhttp://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=134.

Regards,
Doug

 

[dauph197]

I've seen this rifle so often. My question is, was it manufactured like this or it was modified by users? There is a picture with some canadian snipers from the 21th Battalion and they are using this rifle.

Martin

 

[diopter]

Sniping in the Great War
By Martin Pegler
ISBN 978 1 84415 755 6
Good Book. British author, show Canadian snipers training USMC.

 

[Ed82]

Tagged for interest

 

[dauph197]

Here are two more...





So, manufactured like this or unit modified?

Martin

 

[smellie]

As far as I know, there is no mention anywhere of the Ross Factory having built "pre-Stripped" rifles.

Any such conversions would have been done not terribly far from the Front itself, quite possibly by Battalion Armourers.

There appear to have been 2 common patterns for the Stripped Ross: one with a straight cut right at the Middle Band (as Badger's great photo of Number 18 above) and the second type which shows so prominently in the black-and-white photos: a rounded cut just forward of the Middle Band.

In my opinion, the rounded cut, properly smoothed and sealed with BLO over RLO, would have been more water-resistant in the Trenches and would have led to less troubles from shifting bedding. In addition, the rounded cut would have been quicker and slicker to get on top of a sandbag without disturbing your parapet. Knocking down a sandbag and the following repair to the parapet would have been a pretty good indication to Fritz that somebody was planning an assault upon HIS tender bod; Fritz might well have overreacted by blanketing the offending area with 90-pounders, much to the dismay of the heroic Canadian Snipers. The survival rate of men hit by a 90-pounder (15cm Howitzer round) was shockingly low (only man I ever knew who survived it was the single survivor out of 12.... and he still had chunks of steel working out of his body 56 years later) and so the attention of this creature was to be avoided if at all possible.

The men who were using these things knew what they were doing. There can be no argument over that. I do have a couple of Stripped Rosses in my own collection and these have been used in competitions (clock-limited multiple-target shoots on rolling ground with dead space, out to 540 metres) in which they have proven the equal of any iron-sight rifle manufactured before or since. With the bevelled forward cut, they are fast and easy to get onto a parapet, result in no sandbag disturbance, and are quick and easy to get onto the target. That incredible Ross roller-bearing trigger just makes things easier yet: so smooooth and slick.

A Stripped Ross may look funny, but if the bedding has not been wrecked by some Bubba, you would NOT want to stand in front of one at half a mile (800 metres): just too much chance of losing your pension!

 

[smellie]

226 Ross on display

Just did this for another thread, thought it would be proper to re-post it here.


Speaking of Ross Rifles which can be TRACED to a known formation, I was extremely fortunate in being able to obtain a commercially-chopped Mark III which had not been sanded hard enough to obliterate the issue markings.

I purchased it because it was marked to the 226th Battalion, which is one of the precursors to my own former Regiment, the XII Manitoba Dragoons.

This is just to advise anyone who might be passing through Brandon, Manitoba, that this rifle is now on display at the 26th Field Artillery/XII Manitoba Dragoons Museum in the Brandon Armoury on Victoria Avenue in Brandon. It will remain there until June 1, 2015 and then return here for a range session and maintenance, then it will go back to the Museum so others might see it. If you are passing through Brandon and wish to see this rifle, contact John (Ballsofice154) and he will be happy to give you the (literally) guided tour. They have a LOT of neat stuff..... 5 Pickelhauben, TuF, several tons of other goodies.

 

[mrbeil]

Just did this for another thread, thought it would be proper to re-post it here.


Speaking of Ross Rifles which can be TRACED to a known formation, I was extremely fortunate in being able to obtain a commercially-chopped Mark III which had not been sanded hard enough to obliterate the issue markings.

I purchased it because it was marked to the 226th Battalion, which is one of the precursors to my own former Regiment, the XII Manitoba Dragoons.

This is just to advise anyone who might be passing through Brandon, Manitoba, that this rifle is now on display at the 26th Field Artillery/XII Manitoba Dragoons Museum in the Brandon Armoury on Victoria Avenue in Brandon. It will remain there until June 1, 2015 and then return here for a range session and maintenance, then it will go back to the Museum so others might see it. If you are passing through Brandon and wish to see this rifle, contact John (Ballsofice154) and he will be happy to give you the (literally) guided tour. They have a LOT of neat stuff..... 5 Pickelhauben, TuF, several tons of other goodies.

Didn't you also track down a Ross for the Fort Garry Horse museum?

 

[smellie]

I was definitely the Number 3 man in that; BUFFDOG tracked it down and C. O. Smith (now a docent at the San Diego Space Museum) was kind enough to make it available.

All I had in it, personally, apart from cheering, ooooo-ing and ahhh-ing, was a bit over $130 in shipping and half a copy of The Ross Rifle Story, which was sent to C.O. in thanks.

Jo-Brook Firearms of Brandon (site sponsor here) handled bringing it into the country and their Broker ate the costs.

The rifle is a Mark II which bears FGH issue markings which have not been cancelled or superceded.

It is now on public display in a special exhibit at the Fort Garry Horse Regimental Museum in Winnipeg, in the old Minto Armouries.

Buffdog has photos of the rifle as it was brought into the country. Perhaps he might be kind enough to post a couple.

Incidentally, it SHOOTS very well!

 

[buffdog]

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Actually, the story of Fort Garry Ross RIFLES, (there were two of them, a 1910 and a 1905 as it ended up,) began with SMELLIE and I sucking coffee over his kitchen table and kicking things around. There was an in inquiry on CGN about the letters "PLY" on a 1910 Ross. SMELLIE had a similar "PLY" Ross in his collection and he brought it out. He also had one with "PHAB-1" on it. I realized that I had one that would make it identical triplets but was marked "CRB".

With a serial number of over 6000 on SMELLIE's "PLY" rifle, and with the markings stamped on the receiver instead of the wood butt stock, we started with the premise that these were English markings. Next we kicked around just WHO would require over 6000 Ross Rifles, probably after mid-1916. Three such Units were likely candidates, with the Royal Marines on the top of the list. Then, an E-Mail was sent to the Royal Marines Museum in Plymouth, England, and the Curator replied to our inquiry. He asked a well known researcher, (TONY-E) to look into it, and we then received a WEALTH of information not only on the Ross Rifles, but also other rifles bought for the Royal Navy.

At the start of WWI, SMLE rifles were in short supply and needed. The Royal Marines had to give up their SMLE rifles to the Army, and were then given various rifles such as Japanese Arisakas, Italian Carcanos, and finally, the 1910 Ross Rifles. There are quite a few pictures of Royal Marines with Ross Rifles, and even into 1919 when the German Fleet scuttled itself at Scapa Flow.

For anyone interested, other Royal Navy rifles included some 7x57 Mauser rifles that were on the uncompleted Chilean Battleship taken over by the British and renamed the "HMS Canada," Winchester 1892 rifles in 44-40,. Winchester 1894 rifles in 30-30, Remington 44 1/2 pump guns in 44-40, and Remington Rolling Block rifles in 7x57 Mauser. The Broker for these was the Financeer, J.P. Morgan and the Canadian Government sent proof inspectors to New York City to inspect, approve and mark these rifles.

In a phone call to the Royal Marines Museum Curator, he mentioned that they had only one rifle in their Museum and it was a 1910 Ross marked "FGH". We recognized the importance of this rifle, as the date was 2011 and the Fort Garry Horse Centennial was in 2012. One Sunday morning a phone call was made to the Curator of the FGH Museum, (Who must have thought I was some kind of Nut and should be humored) and after talking with him for 10 minutes or so, and handing him all the information on this rifle, (including the fact that the Royal Marines were willing to exchange it for a "PLY" marked one,) we started looking for a suitable "PLY" rifle for the exchange. We found a couple and Gordon Crossley of the FGH found a couple through his contacts.

Unfortunately, it appears that nothing further has been done with this information. But, when Gordon Crossley mentioned that he would like a 1905 Military Mark II rifle for the Museum, as this was what the FGH was originally armed with, our opinion was that we could find one fairly easy and all we needed was to raise a bit of money. We also thought that the chances of finding one with the Fort Garry Horse ownership marks on the butt stock would be almost impossible. Fortunately we were wrong, and TWO such rifles were located after about four months of research. The first one was in the hands of one of our CGN members here, but is going to stay there because of his family association with the Regiment.

The SECOND rifle, however, is another story. It is the one that was obtained for the FGH at no charge to them, and a small amount of expenses to SMELLIE and myself.

SMELLIE and I really do not broadcast what we are doing in instances like this. A few of our acquaintances are aware of SOME of our activities, but we tend to keep them low-key and not blow our own horn while doing these or afterward. We just go ahead and do what needs to be done to preserve these Historical Artifacts for future generations to enjoy. This particular adventure started in 2011 and concluded in 2013, over two years, and only a few people knew about it.

So, maybe some time in the Future I will post the story of the 1905 Fort Garry Horse rifle. It shows just WHAT can be done by a couple of determined people, who were told "You will never be able to do that!"

And, maybe, just maybe, I might post the story of the relationship between the Carberry, Manitoba Machine Guns and the Van Doo's Cannon. That one is good for a real eye watering laugh.
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