Ah yes...wishful thinking galore is about to happen. Everyone will tell their friends they have ex Ross snipers and jack the price accordingly. Just like all those "ex sniper" SVT's around......a scope notch on an SVT or a cutdown fore end on a Ross does not an ex sniper make.
Ross Sniper Rifles
- Thread starter buffdog
- Start date
I saw the real thing for sale on a well-known specialist dealer here at Bisley last year, in absolutely beautiful condition in and out.
Two things stopped me from buying it -
1. I had no space on my Firearms Certificate [FAC] for a .303British rifle of any kind.
2. The Can$11300.00 was a bit of a surprise, to say the least, making it almost twice as valuable as the car I used to get me there...
tac
Two things stopped me from buying it -
1. I had no space on my Firearms Certificate [FAC] for a .303British rifle of any kind.
2. The Can$11300.00 was a bit of a surprise, to say the least, making it almost twice as valuable as the car I used to get me there...
tac
Kind of a defeatist attitude isn't it? A virtual 'Ray of Sunshine' aren't you?
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
On a more positive note, Buffdog, I for one would love to read the two stories about finding historical firearms for a deserving organization to preserve for posterity. I expect a lot of others on here agree with me. I will contribute the cost of your favourite libation if that is what it takes to get you started.
Bill
Bill
No wishful thinking on anyone's part. Just lots of research and pms between us collectors. As well as comparing my own rifle with the one on page 181 (plate 132A) of the Ross rifle story. The description reads and I quote:
"Some rifles were altered, as shown, and used by snipers. The close proximity of the enemy positions did not require a telescope for many marksmen. Others have been seen with varying types of telescope."
The "field stripped" variants that we are describing are built to 2 different but very consistent patterns already outlined buy Smellie. I included a picture of my rifle to give others a reference to work from.
As for "jacking prices up", my Ross rifles aren't for sale and if I did sell them they would go to a person who understands the historic value, not to the highest bidder.
Thing is, a "Stripped Ross" is already halfway to what we think of today as a Sporting rifle, even though the Barrel is FAR heavier than you will find on a genuine Ross Factory Sporter.
Being in this configuration, they would not be as liable to being chopped by your local Bubba. Thus, it is entirely possible that they have a higher survival rate than intact full-military rifles, which generally were chopped mercilessly.
Add to that the fact that "everybody knew" that the longer barrel "shot straighter and harder" and that is a further reason to NOT mess with a Stripped rifle. In actual fact, the longer sighting radius had a great deal to do with the accuracy. As to "shooting harder", my chronograph gives the Ross about 130 ft/sec MV advantage over an SMLE, readings taken within half an hour, ammunition from the same box: the tales of the Ross "shooting harder" are true.
Yes, I do have a couple of Stripped rifles. They are not for sale at any price. I thoroughly endorse Steve's statements (above)!
Rarity alone will keep the fully-intact rifles commanding the highest prices.
The Stripped rifles are a most interesting anomaly and likely their history will remain clouded. It is certain, however, that a good number of rifles were in fact Stripped during the Great War and that these rifles remained in use by the Canadian Corps until, at very least, very close to the end of the War. When Canadian troops came back from the War, they brought rifles with them. As well, the close inspection of the WW2 type was not in place; society had not yet become so paranoid of the instruments which had purchased their victory for them. I would suspect that rather a number came back in barracks-bags.
The most common..... and least-appreciated..... Rosses in Canada today seem to be the ones contained in the large shipments from Britain which arrived here as shop-converted Sporters POST World War Two. Interestingly, these are rifles which have the longest Service history, being Canadian rifles used by the Canadian Corps, turned in for SML-E rifles, used by the Royal Navy, many by the RMLI, kept at Weedon between the Wars, used again in the Second World War by the British, sold surplus to the Trade at the end of War Two, chopped down into makeshift Sporters and exported back to Canada in order to raise some hard currency with which to support the (hollow, at that time) Pound. They have the longest history, the most convoluted history, of the rifles available.... yet they generally are despised. The FUN part is that some can actually be TRACED, as the 226 Battalion rifle now in the Brandon Armoury (see above post).
Rosses are an education: every single one of them!
Being in this configuration, they would not be as liable to being chopped by your local Bubba. Thus, it is entirely possible that they have a higher survival rate than intact full-military rifles, which generally were chopped mercilessly.
Add to that the fact that "everybody knew" that the longer barrel "shot straighter and harder" and that is a further reason to NOT mess with a Stripped rifle. In actual fact, the longer sighting radius had a great deal to do with the accuracy. As to "shooting harder", my chronograph gives the Ross about 130 ft/sec MV advantage over an SMLE, readings taken within half an hour, ammunition from the same box: the tales of the Ross "shooting harder" are true.
Yes, I do have a couple of Stripped rifles. They are not for sale at any price. I thoroughly endorse Steve's statements (above)!
Rarity alone will keep the fully-intact rifles commanding the highest prices.
The Stripped rifles are a most interesting anomaly and likely their history will remain clouded. It is certain, however, that a good number of rifles were in fact Stripped during the Great War and that these rifles remained in use by the Canadian Corps until, at very least, very close to the end of the War. When Canadian troops came back from the War, they brought rifles with them. As well, the close inspection of the WW2 type was not in place; society had not yet become so paranoid of the instruments which had purchased their victory for them. I would suspect that rather a number came back in barracks-bags.
The most common..... and least-appreciated..... Rosses in Canada today seem to be the ones contained in the large shipments from Britain which arrived here as shop-converted Sporters POST World War Two. Interestingly, these are rifles which have the longest Service history, being Canadian rifles used by the Canadian Corps, turned in for SML-E rifles, used by the Royal Navy, many by the RMLI, kept at Weedon between the Wars, used again in the Second World War by the British, sold surplus to the Trade at the end of War Two, chopped down into makeshift Sporters and exported back to Canada in order to raise some hard currency with which to support the (hollow, at that time) Pound. They have the longest history, the most convoluted history, of the rifles available.... yet they generally are despised. The FUN part is that some can actually be TRACED, as the 226 Battalion rifle now in the Brandon Armoury (see above post).
Rosses are an education: every single one of them!
Realist you mean. Based on the amount of sported Ross' out there, you would think that every platoon was made up of 80% snipers if we start saying that non factory sported rifles are armorer configured sniper rifles.
No one here is saying that ALL the cut down Ross Rifles are "armourer configured sniper rifles." As TINMAN204 pointed out in Post # 25 above, the Ross WAS modified for sniping use WITHOUT telescopic sights.
Almost any serious Collector keeps a bit of information to themselves, or share it sparingly with other trusted serious Collectors. When some of these Ross rifles are examined, there are certain "markings" and anomalities that occur on some of them and after you have looked at a lot of them, it becomes apparent that some of these rifles are "different".
There is documented use of the "stripped Ross" rifles being used for sniping, and there is verbal stories of their use by people who were there. As SMELLIE pointed out, "Sniping" was not the exclusive province of people with telescope sighted rifles, but certainly iron sighted rifles were used in conjunction with the scoped ones. The Americans, for example, mounted Browning Automatic Rifle adjustable rear sights on their Model 1917 rifles to be put to use by the better shots of their army.
The Germans used scope sighted hunting rifles, and the British countered with heavy calibre African hunting rifles using open sights, in an attempt to put bullets through the steel plates of the German Snipers. Heskith-Pritchard in his book, "Sniping in France" discusses the meticulous care with which a sniping position was constructed, with the emphasis on inconspicuous. Many trenches were 50 yards away, or even less. In this range, scope sighted rifles would be at a disadvantage in fast acquisition of a target, and a rifle with a big chunk of wood at the end of it would be spotted much easier than a much thinner barrel.
No one is saying that all the cut down rifles were used for sniping, and the ones that were factory modified to sporting rifles in England are easily identified by the proof marks and certain points of their stock configuration. But there are some of these "sporterized" rifles that have a similarity with each other, and fit another pattern with very similar markings on them.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
I have a friend here who's dad and uncle were snipers with the Loyal Eddies in WWII. His dad prefered the open sights of a No1 MkIII to the aperture sights on a No4 or even the No32 scoped 4Ts that were available. He said that sniping was hunting and that you stalked your prey in as close as you could get away with, and by get away he meant just that.
Tinman's rifle is an aweful lot like ones pictured in sniper's possession. Now the rest that are cut back to 22-24" barrels and cut behind the band etc there is no chance. But this is going to be one of those things like proving battle provenance, it cannot be done.
Tinman's rifle is an aweful lot like ones pictured in sniper's possession. Now the rest that are cut back to 22-24" barrels and cut behind the band etc there is no chance. But this is going to be one of those things like proving battle provenance, it cannot be done.
Soldiers do make various mods to their rifles at times, but when their service ends most of them are happy to turn in their weapons. Once modified rifles go back into the system, they are either restored to mil spec or they are scrapped, depending on an armourer's assessment. Some snipers may have brought home their modified rifles, since Ross rifles were probably not accounted for in the ordnance system by the end of WWI, but most would have turned them in and said "goodbye to all that".
There are a few rifles in The Ross Rifle Story which have characteristics that strongly suggest they were at least experimental sniper rifles, if not cut down at the front, but in my opinion 99%+ of the cut down Ross MkIIIs are just that: bubba jobs and nothing more.
There are a few rifles in The Ross Rifle Story which have characteristics that strongly suggest they were at least experimental sniper rifles, if not cut down at the front, but in my opinion 99%+ of the cut down Ross MkIIIs are just that: bubba jobs and nothing more.
