Rugged and reliable?

ian_in_vic said:
I'll bite, the Vz was used as "aid" to many of the same terrorist er revolutionary groups that received the AK. The reason you don't see so much about it is the same reason most Yanks don't know there are Canadians in Afghanistan. Not number 1 means no media time. The Czech army has been using the Vz58 for close to 50 years, if it was sh*t it wouldn't have lasted. The fact that it outlasted the AK47, AKM, and is still in use in the era of the AK74 is likewise interesting. If the AK had been that much superior I'm sure it would have been adopted somewhere along the line, at least by special ops units.
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You might want to read the post before "biting". Nobody says that VZ is sh*t. It is most certainly not - VZ is an excellent gun. The question was how it compares to AK. See the difference? The fact that something is better or worse then VZ does not make VZ neither bad nor good.

As for VZ supplied to many of the same groups that AK was - this is a very interesting fact (it is completely new to me for sure). And if you care to provide some links, that would make most interesting reading.

However even before reading those links I will dare to say that AK have seen more combat then VZ. And I am not sure what makes you think that AK is not used anymore, while VZ is. You know that Iraq insurgency (and BTW the newly created army too) is not armed with VZ, right?

My own preference - I would pick AK over VZ any time. Not that I have a choice anyway.
 
stokka said:
You might want to read the post before "biting". Nobody says that VZ is sh*t. It is most certainly not - VZ is an excellent gun. The question was how it compares to AK. See the difference? The fact that something is better or worse then VZ does not make VZ neither bad nor good.

As for VZ supplied to many of the same groups that AK was - this is a very interesting fact (it is completely new to me for sure). And if you care to provide some links, that would make most interesting reading.

However even before reading those links I will dare to say that AK have seen more combat then VZ. And I am not sure what makes you think that AK is not used anymore, while VZ is. You know that Iraq insurgency (and BTW the newly created army too) is not armed with VZ, right?

My own preference - I would pick AK over VZ any time. Not that I have a choice anyway.
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How do you know you would pick the AK....the VZ is a neat gun....but have you fired the AK?.They are both neat guns in my eyes.
 
Tarn said:
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How do you know you would pick the AK....the VZ is a neat gun....but have you fired the AK?.They are both neat guns in my eyes.
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What kind of question is that... he said he would pick it if he was given the choice, and thats that. I would too, a nice full auto Russian AKM (for the classic and best look) or an AK-103 (for a more tactical look, folding solid stock, muzzle break...)

Cheers,
Alex
 
I have shot/ cleaned the Krinkove, AK, and I own a VZ. Admittedly I haven’t shot any of them (even my VZ) enough for an accurate evaluation.

The VZ has more care in its construction and is more a work of art (IMHO) then a stamped AK. I like the bolt hold open and stripper clip guide (especially for Canadian 5rd loading) I also like the plastic furniture.

I should think that there are widely different construction variances among different AK manufacturers (Chinese, soviet, etc) as opposed to the VZs.

AKs can be made very cheaply and I should think it would cost more to make a VZ.

I don't know how the two would compare in a high use, low maintenance environment. I think KevinB would - someone ask him.

I don't think that ALL AKs are as robust as the current mythology perpetuates, and I don't think the AR15 is as unreliable as the AK people would have you believe. - Contrary to popular belief Jundies do, infact, clean their weapons.

I think the VZ is a fine firearm and I thank my lucky stars that I am able to own one.

The gremlins that pop up with VZs (I haven’t had a gremlin yet) make me a little nervous.

Sorry if I haven’t provided any new information but I enjoy this discussion.

EDIT TO ADD: I can find my sights easier on my VZ than I ever could on an AK (Don't know why)

Jeff
 
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ian_in_vic said:
I'll bite, the Vz was used as "aid" to many of the same terrorist er revolutionary groups that received the AK. The reason you don't see so much about it is the same reason most Yanks don't know there are Canadians in Afghanistan. Not number 1 means no media time. The Czech army has been using the Vz58 for close to 50 years, if it was sh*t it wouldn't have lasted. The fact that it outlasted the AK47, AKM, and is still in use in the era of the AK74 is likewise interesting. If the AK had been that much superior I'm sure it would have been adopted somewhere along the line, at least by special ops units.
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Let us also not forget that to many they look the same. Even on this board quite a few folks still think the VZ is an AK derivative. So for the press and the average newbie, they are the same.

However, in my experience, the AK seems to be more robust. I do admit however that many of the problems we currently see with the VZs may have been caused by the fact that the guns were converted to SA, or built on different recievers of unknown quality.
 
This issue has been discussed here many times. A police instructor published a comparison of those two weapons. He stested both in Afghanistan. Basically the SA58 is harder to controll in full-auto mode due to lower weight and higher rate of fire (800 SA58 vs. 600 AK). It is lighter by 1,3kg including a full magazine. The SA58 is more sensitive to low-quality ammo, more complicated on disassembly. It has a better finish, the lacquer a lot of people does not like is actually very goor protection of the weapon.
And why the Czech Army never adopted AK? When the Army selected a rifle it was presented with AK and the data said the weight is so and so. When the comission actually compared the real thing they found out it is very heavy compared to then prototypes of Vz. 58. That is why it has won over AKs.

WHat is the problem, it is a fine weapon, 50 years old but quite fine. Ak is a reliable weapon as well. If you can own one, shoot it. That is it.
 
stokka said:
There is absolutely no answer for that question. VZ was never used in such a veriaty of conditions and situations as AK. I doubt that VZ was used in a military conflict ever. We KNOW that AK is bloody reliable. But we THINK that VZ is not too bad. :)
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The VZ-58 was used by the Lebanese Forces against the PLO and thier allies during the Lebanese civil war. It was very much loved and found to be very reliable.

war028.jpg

A Palestinain gunmen shows off a captured Lebanese Forces Vz.58 assault rifle, a Czech version of the AK47. Bhamdoun, 1983.
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PS: Deckard this pic is for you ;)
 
I have fired both and to me the VZ is superior to the ak the only complaint i have about the vz is the crappy mag release in the same sense the selector for the AK sucks too.
 
Speckfire said:
The VZ-58 was used by the Lebanese Forces against the PLO and thier allies during the Lebanese civil war. It was very much loved and found to be very reliable.
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And that is why you gotta love canagiangunnutz.com. Tnx a lot for the info and the photo!!!
 
I own a CZ 858 and the only thing I dislike about it is the top side ejection, particularly when you get hit in the head with brass.

Look I taught the dancing banana a new trick
bananadance.gif
 
i actually prefer the VZ to the AK.
the VZ mag release does suck.
the AK safety does suck.
the AK is heavier
the VZ has a complicated trigger compaired to the AK
the AK feels loose and sloppy when firing
the VZ has a nice slot for stripper clips

just my 2 cents
 
Which AK are you comparing the VZ to Powerwagon? Sounds like a Norinco ;)
You're welcome Stokka :)
 
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P0WERWAGON said:
M78
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Valmet M-78? Well of course it's heavier, it's an RPK model, plus it has wood on it :). As far as loose and sloppy to fire, I'm surprised but then again it's an RPK.

I have a Hungarian AK, an SA-85 that I can compare to my VZ-58. Weight wise the AK is slightly heavier yes since it's not a folder and has a longer barrel (18.5 inch) but it does not feel loose or sloppy at all. The AK kicks more because of the massive bolt and piston rod, (like a machine gun) compared to the VZ.
 
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