rules point(s): switching tops back and forth in middle of a match, in Production

[omen]

Hi all,

(just getting a head start on the summer rules-#####ing and arguing season )

Thinking ahead to the provincials; that stage people are so afraid of (the 30m poppers in front of PTs) - I'd rather shoot that with regular, non-FO sights. Anything wrong with me having two tops for my production gun, one with FO, one with non, and just switching them back and forth in the middle of a match?

Let the IPSC lawyering begin! As usual, extra credit will be given to those offering rules/etc in their arguments, as opposed to gut feelings

 

[Quigley]

Rule 5.1.7

Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.
5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.
5.1.7.3 The competitor’s ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph (see Rule 5.6.3.9).

5.1.8 A competitor who substitutes or significantly modifies a handgun during a match without the prior approval of the Range Master will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6. (Match Disqualification – Unsportsmanlike Conduct)

 

[omen]

Rule 5.1.7

Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights

right, but 'FO' is the same 'type' of sight as post, as ruled by IPSC (that's why you can have FO on guns which don't have FOs out of the factory - post and FO are the same type: non-optical), so I wouldn't be changing the gun, nor would I be changing the type of the sight... ??

 

[omen]

There are other ways of getting the same thing done; take out the FO before the stage, and put one back in, after - again, no changing the type of sight, and this method does not involve any changes to the gun itself (which mean no arguments over is that other slide for the same make/model/etc).

Plus, we can blacken the sights, right? So take a black marker, and blacken the FO, effectively removing it. Then, replace the FO with a new one - again, no one's changing any sight type, or making any changes to the gun (and applying black to your sights is explicitly allowed)...

ohh, well...

 

[Popurhedoff]

Omen... that is in my opinion flagrantly abusing of the rules and shows a lack of Sportsmanship.... Use one gun/upper... if you have to resort to that type of... I'll say it "Cheating" then I suggest you get a "Life"

I know you like to win but at what expense? I think your reputation is worth more than to change uppers to shoot at poppers at 30 yards + I am sure that this will set a fine example to our new shooters.

Do what the rest of us do... squint, take aim and fire... IPSC1 matches has poppers out to 75 yards, no complaints there.

Its your reputation

 

[667]

I can't believe someone would want to get "gamey" in order to shoot targets at 30-75 yrds with a RIFLE!
It's a rifle.... If you can't hit a target at 30yrds........ never mind

 

[omen]

it's either allowed by the rules or not; let's not get into the whole "spirit" argument, if we did I'd have to point out I have a hard time accepting that taking out the firing pin safety on an SP01 is anything other than 'cheating' in the same sense as what you're talking about - but it's allowed, so I just shake my head and move on. I don't think any less of people who wish to do it, since it's working the system, nothing more.

if we can take custom internal and external parts and put them into the SP01s, and that's not cheating, I have a very hard time thinking that anyone would think less of me because on a long distance shot I blacked out the FO to be able to see the front sight better, to align the sights better.

Again, this will come down to if what I want to do is 'legal' or not. If it is, great; if it's not, too bad, so sad. But worrying about what example that will set for our new shooters? Uhhmmm... I think I've done enough for new shooters in IPSC so that I think they'll probably forgive me for blackening out my FO for a single stage in a single match.

Sorry, but I find your post to be more of a personal attack than something relevant to my original question... my reputation? People who get along just fine with me will continue to do so, people who don't, will continue to do so - I really don't see any impact this will have on anything like my reputation...

 

[Quigley]

Regarding changing the front site or the slide...

I will admit the wording could be better...

but...what is perfectly clear is that...it's a major modification and would have to be approved by the RM (who presumably would quote the same rules as posted in this thread)

...just learn to track your front site

 

[Quigley]

I can't believe someone would want to get "gamey" in order to shoot targets at 30-75 yrds with a RIFLE!
It's a rifle.... If you can't hit a target at 30yrds........ never mind

who said anything about a rifle

 

[Quigley]

I'd have less respect for someone that tried this on the QT. Asking about it in a public forum is not an attempt to be decieiving...it's putting it all on the table (educating you might say)

Challenging the rules keeps us all on our toes (RO's and shooters)...nothing wrong with that.

I see no reason for any personal attacks

 

[maxpig]

it's either allowed by the rules or not; let's not get into the whole "spirit" argument, if we did I'd have to point out I have a hard time accepting that taking out the firing pin safety on an SP01 is anything other than 'cheating' in the same sense as what you're talking about - but it's allowed, so I just shake my head and move on. I don't think any less of people who wish to do it, since it's working the system, nothing more.

if we can take custom internal and external parts and put them into the SP01s, and that's not cheating, I have a very hard time thinking that anyone would think less of me because on a long distance shot I blacked out the FO to be able to see the front sight better, to align the sights better.

Again, this will come down to if what I want to do is 'legal' or not. If it is, great; if it's not, too bad, so sad. ...

I understand what you're trying to address here but the difference is the "legal" mods have been done before the match and not for each stage as it suits you... otherwise I'll have a 5 pound trigger pull for short field and heavier for long distance targets.... or i'll move my mags from my right side to the small of my back because it suits me going prone easier... As with anything in IPSC... the intent of the rule supersedes the wording.... you can't make changes once you start the match unless u have equipment failure.

 

[eh class]

It's things like this that drive people away from the sport,all the people that I talk to that have dropped out say it's because of the bickering and arguing that goes on,when it gets to the point that I 'm not having fun because I'm worrying about every little thing than it will be time to call it quits.

 

[Freedom Ventures]

It's things like this that drive people away from the sport,all the people that I talk to that have dropped out say it's because of the bickering and arguing that goes on,when it gets to the point that I 'm not having fun because I'm worrying about every little thing than it will be time to call it quits.

If you get close to that here in NS, please tell me - 'cause I'll fix it or leave with you.

 

[maurice]

I see this in the same respect that a shooter would be denied the ability to change barrels and sights in Rifle and shotgun. I would say a no go. Your gun should stay the same for the whole match IMHO.

 

[pmt]

right, but 'FO' is the same 'type' of sight as post, as ruled by IPSC (that's why you can have FO on guns which don't have FOs out of the factory - post and FO are the same type: non-optical), so I wouldn't be changing the gun, nor would I be changing the type of the sight... ??

Omen, I agree with you. It would probably end up with a new interpretation of the rules.
Under 5.1.7 you would still be using the same handgun and type of sights. Changing from one OEM slide to an identical OEM slide is not a significant modification. The handgun and/or sights have not become unserviceable or unsafe, so you shouldn't need permission to change the sights. If the RM insists on approving the change based on the sub-sections of 5.1.7 >
5.1.7.1. Does not apply - it's not a substitute handgun
5.1.7.2. Does not apply - it's not a substitute handgun
5.1.7.3. Does not apply - it's not a substitute handgun

No reason to deny approval based on the rules.

All of the above is my opinion only.

 

[Madness]

Switching top ends huh? Get your head out of your a$$. If you know what you're doing it shouldn't matter what sights you use as long as they are zero'd. If you want to tweak around with your gun go to Standard or Open. All a production gun is these days is a low end Standard gun with a heavy trigger and no mag well. Grip tape, after market and or fiber optic sights, swaped out springs, trigger jobs, race holsters, what next?
So much for the "Production is for real guns" argument. I have less modifications on my Edges then most production shooters have on their guns, the only thing that isn't from the factory is a SVI mainspring housing and an Aftec extractor. So if you can swap out a top end then why not go to one with a longer barrel when you have long shots, as long as its matches a factory offered configuration. Like putting a G34 top end on to a G17 frame.

 

[maurice]

Switching top ends huh? Get your head out of your a$$. If you know what you"re doing it shouldn't matter what sights you use as long as they are zero'd. If you want to tweak around with your gun go to Standard or Open. All a production gun is these days is a low end Standard gun with a heavy trigger and no mag well. Grip tape, after market and or fiber optic sights, swaped out springs, trigger jobs, race holsters, what next?

ouch!
I agree, Production pistols are really no longer "duty" type guns. WHo in there right mind would put FO sights on there duty pistol. Even my HK USP, I put a FO sight set on it, and I am know using reduced PF loads (albeit still in the 132PF range) .., and a race holster.

***I mentioned in a previous post that IPSC/USPSA/IDPA are "games",....but I think I meant to say, a "shooting sport", to have fun, follow the rules, be a good sportsman/person, and be competitive. We all participate for different reasons. Who knows, I might be having an "awakening".......I guess that is why I haven't sold off my Tritium sights and Bladetech belt holster yet.
I like to leave my options open. **

 

[8MAG]

Hey Omen one of the clan members shoots std with a FO and at long range and on a bright day he has a hard time getting a good sight picture. He will give the sight a shoot of sight black then on the next stage give it a wipe and all is good. This works great and no rule problems.

 

[MrFritz]

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:
5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.
5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.
5.1.7.3 The competitor’s ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph (see Rule 5.6.3.9).

Let's get real here... how can anyone consider a top end swap-out to be the same handgun? The rule does not say the same type or model of handgun. It says the same handgun. Furthermore, the express purpose of the exercise that Omen proposes is to gain a competitive advantage. You have to use the same equipment throughout the match unless it becomes unserviceable or unsafe. And even then, the substitution cannot offer a competitive advantage.

In my opinion, swapping out the top end to switch sights (or just to switch sights) is not permitted.

 

[Quigley]

I asked for a formal reply for NROI Canada...

It's not allowed...no surprise