Found a great thread I thought had detailed information for beginners or collectors. A must read for the uninitiated. Overall just a good read.
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=77478.0
Enjoy.
I copied the thread for those interested.
Question: “How much is my SKS worth?”
My understanding is that Russian Simonov's generally fall into two separate pricing categories in the U.S.: the 'shootables' and the 'collectibles', and here are several ways you can make that important distinction.
The vast majority of the Russian SKS’s that were imported for sale here over 20 years ago were refurbs - let's say 95% of them. And the fact is these value-priced, military surplus rifles arrived in excellent mechanical shape, perfectly well suited for both accurate and reliable shooting with widely available and inexpensive 7.62x39 surplus ammo. A few non-refurbished Simonovs arrived as well (sometimes these are called 'as-issued' examples) that were simply thrown in with the rest. These are appreciated for their rarely seen original factory-issued condition when they are identified by collectors. These fetch a premium if in excellent condition but their intrinsic value as collectibles can be lost easily through rough handling or by any modification.
Most of our imported Russian Simonovs were issued and saw hard use in the former Soviet Union during the Cold War, and most of them at some point went back for a refurbishment process - either at one of the two original arsenals (Tula and Izhevsk) or at one of several refurb facilities throughout the U.S.S.R. Some rifles appear to have undergone a light process, others a heavy and thorough rebuild. Some show evidence of having been sent back twice. Nowadays, we use the term "refurb" simply to describe a rifle with any level and any combination of these efforts. Some of the more obvious to the less obvious: a new stock (usually laminated, usually with a second cross bolt at the wrist); new black paint covering parts that were originally blued or left in-the-white; a new replacement barrel (usually chrome lined); a replacement rear sight (in-the-white metal, not blued); a new magazine; new gas tube; new bayonet (matte finish); new buttplate; new piston; new springs/pins/screws and etc.
These "refurb" SKS's were professionally overhauled to mechanically like-new condition, even if their appearance was slightly altered. And, a refurbed Russian SKS rifle not only costs less than a collectible one outright, but you won't be decreasing its value a fraction as much by shooting and enjoying them.
>Buyers note that refurbs are very often listed for sale as ‘mint’ and ‘unfired’ and 'new' or even sometimes ‘new-in-box’. Be careful to understand what that means. Refurbs are not in the same demand as collectible SKS’s and should not cost as much. On the other hand, some can still be found in their original importer's cardboard box with various accessories, and as these complete sets are becoming scarce they are collected and valued in their own right.
Russian Simonovs that have not been refurbished and have remained all-original and intact since their Stalin-era production are of real interest to collectors. These far more rare examples are valued highly to reflect that central fact, as well as several other variables. For example, some Arsenal/year combinations are quite rare and therefore more desirable [such as a 1949 Tula, the first year of production]; some might prefer the less frequently seen Izhevsk over a Tula made Simonov; others may prefer a dark red shellac pattern on the original stock over a light blonde color; some collectors want a matching year-dated sling... And, of course whether a rifle remains in excellent condition, and is complete, and has not been used as a shooter by a previous owner.
But, their price is affected also by how often these are seen for sale. The prices vary as the supply varies. The overall economy is one factor, but another is unpredictable changes in so-called 'assault weapons' laws. What happens in one state may affect supply and demand nationwide - for both the collectible and refurb markets.
So, there are individual value judgments that each buyer makes to select an example for their own collection and there are unpredictable external variables that affect pricing. For both these reasons, any suggestion here of some sort of value range for a collectible Russian SKS that you might come across next month would be truly pointless. That determination will be up to you alone, after you've begun to research collectible examples here on this board and elsewhere online. And, then you will make those judgments for your own collection - according to your own 'eye'.
But, as for refurbs -
I think an all-complete, excellent condition Russian that will be used as a 'shooter' SKS should run about $325-$350 in the U.S. [1st UPDATE Oct.2011: about $400-$425] [2nd UPDATE Feb.2013: about $475-$500] [3rd UPDATE April 2014: about $550].
And a refurb in good condition but having some issues (say, a mismatched bolt, or deeply scratched wood, or missing some minor part such as the cleaning rod or sling... ones that have started down the path towards becoming a 'beater' SKS but that nevertheless are perfectly functional) these can be had under $300. [1st UPDATE Oct.2011: can be had under $350] [2nd UPDATE Feb.2013: can be had under $425] [3rd UPDATE April 2014: no change].
The price range for someone's 'beater' SKS or their 'bubba' SKS project ...is simply too broad to note.
Special variants such as "ex-DDR" marked, or "Letter Series" Simonovs (read section below) can add to collector interest by their rarity, and will even add to a refurb's value.
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Question: “What should I look for?”
Refurbs can be identified in several ways - which makes it very easy for you not to confuse them with as-issued examples:
1) A refurb MAY have a special refurb stamp on the receiver cover: either a square with a diagonal line through the middle [/] or a diamond <> or a diamond with line <|> or cross <+>. Also, check the stock for a large [/] in the wood. If any of these marks are present then it surely is a refurbished rifle. But, even if none of these marks is found it could still be a refurb!
I'd estimate that about 1/2 of the known refurbs I've examined actually had no 'refurb stamp' on the receiver cover. This can confuse both seller and buyer. These may be priced like an 'as-issued' SKS ...but they aren't. An inexperienced buyer might be told that a Simonov for sale is not a refurb because "there is no refurb stamp" and will believe it, despite other definite signs of refurb that we will examine below.
2) Refurb paint is an excellent clue. All bolt carriers were finished in-the-white, polished bare metal. So, if you see one has been painted over black then that rifle definitely went back for a refurb no matter what the seller tells you. I think the same goes for bayonets - if painted blue or black then it's a replacement, but there is some disagreement among collectors there.
Aside from the obvious -the black painted bolt carrier and/or bayonet- the presence of refurb paint on the blued parts of the Simonov may be subtle and easily overlooked, especially in photographs. For example, black paint might be applied to an old barrel or the gas tube, making one slightly blacker/matte than the other; also on a replacement magazine that looks just a tad darker than the magazine catch; or over a worn-down butt plate making it look too new, where no one thinks to look. There seem to be several textures of refurb black paint: matte, shiny, krinkle. Owners and collectors of Russian Simonovs simply refer to all kinds as 'BBQ' paint.
3) On close inspection, you will find that several small parts of every Russian Simonov are serialed to match the rifle, by hand, using an electro-pen. These hand-stencilled serials are not evidence of a refurb. [The gas piston, the underside of the rear sight, and other components where the metal cannot be handled by a stamping machine because they are too thin, or on a tight radius curve, or are very small irregular parts.] >Note however that a hand-stencilled serial number on either the magazine bottom or the trigger guard -on which serials are always factory stamped- does indicate a forced match replacement part, and therefore makes it a 'refurb' rifle.
4) A replacement SKS stock is quite definitive in determining that a rifle has undergone refurbishment. [On the other hand, the identification of a factory original SKS stock almost always means a non-refurb rifle, and possibly a collectible example.] So, to cover both types there is a lot to discuss:
Virtually all of the original factory production stocks were made of Russian (also called 'Arctic') Birch hardwood, with a range of shellac colors, and with one cross-bolt. And, since most Russians are refurbs the vast majority of those original stocks were lost. Both hardwood and laminated Russian Birch stocks were used as replacements during the refurb process, and as a result you'll see both kinds on every year produced - don't let it throw you.
During the early period of Simonov refurbishment a once-used hardwood stock would be refinished and have its serial number ###X'd out and restamped to match. You can see where some hardwood stocks were refurbished twice: they have two rows of ###X's over the serial number. Later on the refurb facilities switched to the new laminated stocks [we don't know the year] and these were also serial matched to their refurbs.
Laminated stocks are a bit heavier and sturdier, and have two cross bolts. The single crossbolt design was found to be a bit weak: a crack may form behind the receiver at the wrist after hard use and the later-made laminated replacement stocks have two - the second one at the wrist.
Also, laminated replacement stocks are generally lighter in shellac color than most hardwood stocks, but the handguard appears striped. The handguards are pinned to the gas tube and not easily replaced, so some refurbs still wear their original hardwood handguards with a new replacement laminated stock - these can appear slightly color mismatched.
If your Russian SKS stock is laminated, then there's an overwhelming likelihood it's a replacement for an original hardwood stock. That makes it a refurb. This is true even if its serial number matches the rifle's because almost all replacement stocks were stamped to match during the refurb process.
[*A note to collectors: keep an eye out for the very few, late Tula rifles that were made with an original production laminated stock, 1955 or possibly the later Letter series - there just aren't enough examples to draw firm generalities about them. Their laminated wood is covered with the factory red shellac for a stunning look. All those I've seen have the tiny inspector's cartouches around the forward cross bolt; these stocks often have just the serial number stamped on.]
A rifle wearing its factory original hardwood stock in excellent condition -with its original shellac- and all the little inspection stamps- is desirable for any collector. Again, this strongly indicates a non-refurb rifle. My own rule of thum
If it wears an original production stock then the SKS has not been through refurb... and it may be a collectible one, subject to overall condition, completeness, rarity of year, beauty, etc.
Here's a simple a-b-c on how to identify a factory original stock on a Simonov, one central requirement for it being a collectible rifle:
A] Virtually all original production stocks from both Tula and Izhevsk have three rows of markings on the left side: the arsenal stamp, the year followed by an 'r', and the serial number with both Cyrillic letters and Roman numerals. B] There will be no ###X's over an old serial number on an original, non-refurbished stock. And, C] original hardwood stocks almost always have just one cross bolt, with lightly stamped inspector's cartouches arranged around it.
[*A note to collectors: a few rare exceptions to this otherwise excellent rule of thumb have been uncovered. A handful of Russians that were certainly refurbed do appear to be wearing their own original but refinished stocks, very lightly sanded and reshellacked, and they have lost their light cross bolt cartouches. These quasi-refurbs are rather difficult to identify and value, but rather unique and therefore of interest.]
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Question: “What else determines price?”
After you know which category the Russian falls into, there's always bargaining:
For a refurb, I'd start deducting on the rifle’s use and overall condition, especially the stock. After that deduct about $40 to replace a missing bayonet, maybe $15 for a missing cleaning rod, maybe $15 for a missing cleaning kit. On the other hand, you should add more for an original SKS sling - and if it's a year-dated sling with a hammer&sickle emblem ...then much more. But add nothing for an AK sling, which is quite common on refurbs. You can educate yourself on these items by searching this site for pictures from members, and on Yooper John's webpage.
All things being equal, buyers don't seem to add any value to one kind of stock over the other on a refurb; either a replacement hardwood stock with ###X'd out numbers and a visible history to the rifle, or a newer laminated stock. They seem to sell at about the same price. Many prefer the more authentic early '50's look with the reddish shellac on birch hardwood, but some opt for laminated durability on a shooter SKS.
Generally speaking, aftermarket accoutrements like scope mount, plastic stock, and extended magazines do not increase the value of a refurb Russian SKS, being so common, and they will subtract severely from the price of any collectible Russian - because it is no longer in "as-issued" guise.
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Question: “What types of Russian Simonovs are there?”
Izhevsk-made SKS’s only came out in 1953 and 1954, and so are more scarce. No other obvious difference, but some collectors consider Izhevsk Simonovs to be in a class by themselves. And, collectors who want to fill out all production years will likely pay more for an Izhevsk due to scarcity. Their arsenal stamp on the receiver cover is an arrow in a triangle, in a circle.
The Tula's were made from 1949 to...unknown. Their arsenal stamp on the receiver cover is an arrow in a star. [But, if there is no arsenal stamp on top of the receiver cover and/or no star - then it is a late production Tula from at least 1955/6 onward, and if you look closely it will have a small star struck on the left side of the receiver, off to the right of the serial number.]
The 1949's are particularly sought after in almost any condition, but especially so if they still posses any of the rare and unique features from that first production run at Tula, such as 90-degree gas port, spike bayonet, looped receiver cover latch, and a hand-stencilled Tula arsenal mark on the 1949 receiver cover.
Now, let me clarify that question mark about the end of Tula production. A late-manufactured Tula may also be a rather rare and desirable variant called a 'Letter Series' Simonov whose serial number is followed by one of three Cyrillic letters: Д [a 'D'], И [an 'I'], or К [a 'K']. While Tula receiver covers are dated up through 1955, these Letter Series are found with undated receiver covers and may indicate several, following years of production. This matter is debated among collectors.
Another debate among collectors is the meaning behind an uncommon receiver stamp. It's a large but lightly struck mark on the receivers of both Tula and Izhevsk Simonovs (therefore added after production) to the left and slightly below the serial: a numeral 1 inside a triangle. Look closely, it may be obscured by the stock. This mark is most often seen on rifles with unusual horizontal serials stamped into their stock and forearm, making them an uncommon variety of refurb. These are termed 'ex-DDR' Simonovs (or simply as 'DDR' Simonovs) because of the similarity to serial stampings on the stocks of some East German rifles. But, there is no direct supporting evidence. [One premise is that Russian Simonovs were lent to East Germany (Deutsche Demokratische Republik) possibly during the 1961 Berlin Crisis, and accepted and/or refurbished in the DDR with these unique markings, before being returned to Russia.]
By the way, if you see on the right side of the receiver "Made in Russia #CCCP12345" -or something- that was stamped on in the U.S. by the importer for marketing. I think it detracts from a collector-grade example because it's 1) not original and 2) pretty garish. But, this addition does not lessen the price for a shooter/refurb SKS.
The four U.S. Russian Simonov importer's marks are CDI, NHM, KBI and CAI, and are more discreetly added to the receiver in that order. CAI being preferred by some collectors - they merely added two English letters on the left side of the receiver to translate the Cyrillic letters in the serial, with the rest of the required information placed on the barrel.
Let me say that whether you get a collectible or a shooter grade - these were all very well made semi-autos; the actions are quite rugged and in fact overbuilt for the 7.62x39 cartridge. This Stalin-approved design is still the parade rifle carried in Red Square today.
But, now I'm going to place a caveat on the SKS design. There are two safety concerns that may be unknown to new owners:
1] the safety lever when ON merely blocks the trigger from depressing. It does NOT block the sear from moving. Whenever you have a loaded SKS, even with the safety ON, a good jar or jolt or dropping the rifle can result in a discharge.
2] Russians made from late 1950 onward were the variant that omitted the firing pin spring, and it's free-floating. A free-floating pin will dent the primer each time it loads a round after firing. This is not a problem with imported milsurp Russian ammo because they have hard military style primers, but when using modern commercial ammo with soft primers there can be dangerous mishaps. There are many reports on this forum of slam fires and even some full-auto discharges of all rounds in the magazine.
>If either of these issues concern you, please look into Murray's firing pin fix and Kivaari's sear/safety fix on the commercial pages of this forum.
In my own opinion, the Russian SKS's made at Tula and Izhevsk in the 1950's are more finely crafted and finished than those from other countries afterward. But, because of the flood of inexpensive Chinese and Yugo models on the gun market, the original Russians are still priced artificially low in order to be competitive and are a solid shooting value. Enjoy them as fine historical trophies from the Cold War and, in certain condition, as worthy collectibles whose value keeps rising, reliably.
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My own understanding of some tricky terms commonly used to sell Russian SKS's:
un-issued/non-issued : a meaningless representation, to me. Because I've never met an imported milsurp Russian SKS that was actually unissued.
[EDITED Feb.2013] A handful of exceptions to this good rule have recently been noted: several in the U.S. and perhaps a handful in Canada. In the U.S. market, one of these Simonovs came from among the one-off examples assembled at the very end of Tula production, apparently crated and never issued, with a no Star/no Date receiver cover. To identify: on these truly un-issued examples you will not see any wear to the buttplate's original blueing from being rested on-end during its service life, whereas even collectable as-issued examples have significant blueing loss there alone. Please note that, as we often hear, it is the exception that proves the Rule ...And you are far more likely to be sold a simple refurb under this incredible description.
as-issued : the collector's prize. A rifle virtually the way it came off the production line at Tula or Izhevsk. All the serials match. All the parts are original. No refurbishment marking. Complete and nothing missing. Excellent condition overall (with the typical exception of heavy wear and missing blueing on the buttplate alone). These usually show some gentle handling, with small and very light scratching. These should appear to have aged. Remember, if it appears "like new" to you then it's probably a refurb.
non-refurb : this implies it is an 'as-issued' Russian, like above, but really without the professional commitment. It depends on the seller: maybe he doesn't see a refurb mark (or knows what one looks like); maybe he sees no obvious replacement parts (or doesn't understand what the black paint is for); and maybe because he sees a matching stock serial (underneath a row of ###X's). As well, any "non-refurb" rifle might not be describing a complete rifle (where's the bayonet?). And the previous owner could even have turned a "non-refurb" into his bubba project. So, even if this attribution is correct and it was not sent back in for refurb in the U.S.S.R. - who really knows what he's holding with such a vague description?
refurb/re-arsenalled : it has been back to the factory or one of the old U.S.S.R.'s refurb facilities before import to the U.S. These are the most common ...and it should be a simple task for any well-read beginner to differentiate these from rare 'as-issued' Russian Simonovs and avoid mistakenly paying collectible prices for a shooter rifle - the rookie mistake.
all-matching : not the best way to describe a Russian SKS. I am dubious when I hear this term because the replacement laminated stocks on refurbs are almost always numbered to match the rifle and this confuses amateur sellers and buyers. At best, this term means there are no obvious replacement parts, and that kind of implies a non-refurb rifle ...but don't hold your breath!
unfired/new-in-box : these are important terms usually referring to mint status on collectible firearms and are totally misapplied when describing imported refurb milsurp weapons. These terms only mean that after their refurbishment and importation and re-packaging, the rifles have never been shot... That's all. It may look brand spanking new out of a box only because the Soviet refurb process brought these rifles back up to excellent mechanical condition and appearance.
Most of the imported Simonovs have seen use, and abuse, and then been refurbished - some more than once, and then been exported, and repackaged. So...
