Rust/dirt problem: Gewehr 88, 98, and Mauser C96

Nabs

Nabs

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Hello all, I need some assistance with cleaning my Gewehr 88, 98 and C96 "Broomhandle". All three suffer from some form of pitting over their service lives but worst of all is the rust build up that simple elbow grease and rust remover solution cannot get off. I was thinking of going to the hardware store and picking some really good industrial rust remover but I am afraid that it will damage the bluing on all three firearms. I have read and talked to people who say I should use a special brush but I want to be sure exactly what it is and how to use it least I damage the bluing and what not.

On a similar note, I am experiencing a "sticky" bolt problem with my Gewehr 98. When I received her, she was covered in a thick layer of rust (especially around the action). Taking the bolt apart alone took over an hour. After numerous cleaning sessions, the rust that I could remove by hand is all gone yet some surface rust remains (pictures at bottom of post). I took special care with the bolt and outer chamber to remove any rust or cosmoline that was still present and my investigations show nothing significant hampering the bolt. To explain simply, it takes a bit of force to get the bolt locking lugs into the outer chamber. Turning down the bolt handle is fine but when I open the bolt, I have to pull with moderate force to my 5 o'clock position to open the bolt otherwise it will not open. Any ideas here??

My Gewehr 88 is in much better shape visually yet the barrel jacket has some rust on it that I would like to remove but my rust removal solution can only take so much off. I was thinking what would work for my 98 for getting rid of the deep surface rust would get rid of what is left on my 88.

My C96 suffers from a similar problem, dirt build up that elbow grease cannot remove.

My goal is to restore the firearms to as close to their former glory as possible without damaging them in their current condition. Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

These pictures are the best I can do with my 98 as the rust build up does not show up under normal light. The action, bolt depress area, and trigger assembly are the worst areas.

Photo 1

Photo 2

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Edit: I can upload pictures of my 88 and C96 if it will help.
 
There ya go

Personally I think that's what they like to call patina. I don't think you're going to remove that without stripping the bluing too.

If it isn't red, rough and powdery, leave it. The potential to do damage to the gun is far greater than just working off the excess crud with a nylon brush and oiling her back up.

As for being sticky, I assume you've stripped the gun down and cleaned all the cosmo out of all the little orifices? If the bolt isn't a mismatch it should be very smooth. Perhaps (with the wood removed) clean it with boiling soapy water. You'll be amazed at the crud that comes out of everywhere, and the gun will self dry!

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Thanks Wally, but I didn't want to take up thread space with directly linked photos. Oh well, as long as I can get the rust off, I am happy.

Edit: any particular soap ? What type of procedure should I follow, just drop the barrel and action into a bathtub of hot soapy water for an hour ?

Edit 2: The rust on my 88s barrel that is left is smooth to the touch after my thorough cleaning yet some still comes off with my rust removal solution. The same goes for my 98 yet sometimes I can feel a bit of rust here and there.

Edit 3: Yes, I stripped my 98 completely apart and cleaned every single part thoroughly. I just don't understand the sticky bolt. She is is a WW2 rebuild and the bolt does not match serial number wise yet the firing pin has a Prussian proof stamp so I am thinking it is a Gewehr 98a bolt that was modified and blued and put back into the rifle (but not the original bolt).
 
No particular soap, dish soap seems to work well. I usually hold my gun barrel down and either juggle the pot of water or have someone pour it. If something needs more I stick it in the pot and swish it around as I'm brushing it. Trick is to rinse it with a pot of boiling water after to heat the metal up again so the metal evaporates the remaining water and makes it less of a job for you :p

What rust removal solution? Only stuff I've ever come across removes bluing too! :O

Weeeellll, I am 100% NOT an expert on bolts, but unless the bolt was serialed to the gun, there's potential for a problem in my opinion. I'll put my foot in my mouth somehow if I voice any more opinions on a public forum though.
 
I use Outers Rust Remover, says it does not remove gun bluing on the back (one of the first things I checked for). I figured it was a better fit then going to Canadian tire and getting WD 40 or something like that.
 
That doesn't look like rust to me. Have you tried furniture stripper on the metal? It may actually be varnished for some reason...?
 
The wood should be worked differently from the metal. I would be very concerned about losing the patina on both; the old bluing on the metal, and the finish on the wood.

Ultrasonic cleaners will shake off any contaminates on the parts. Hot water will soften and dislodge grit encrusted with hardened oil and grease. For other milsurps I have used HOT HOT water and engine degreaser. Soak and scrub. It worked wonders.
 
Claven2 said:
That doesn't look like rust to me. Have you tried furniture stripper on the metal? It may actually be varnished for some reason...?
Click to expand...

The stock was refinished at one point, whether during a re-fit in WW1, the re-work in the 1930s, or post war. Suffice to say, when I was cleaning the action for the first time with the rust remover solution, the shop towels that were normally blue were rust red. The receiver is where you can feel the pits that are filled with little bits of rust though it is hard to photograph.

You can see the pits with rust somewhat in this photograph of the receiver.

Photo 3

If this is varnish, how would I be able to tell ? How would I safely remove it ?
maple_leaf_eh said:
The wood should be worked differently from the metal. I would be very concerned about losing the patina on both; the old bluing on the metal, and the finish on the wood.

Ultrasonic cleaners will shake off any contaminates on the parts. Hot water will soften and dislodge grit encrusted with hardened oil and grease. For other milsurps I have used HOT HOT water and engine degreaser. Soak and scrub. It worked wonders.
Click to expand...

I too am concerned about losing the finish and the history associated with the rifle but I cannot stand the rust being all over the action even though it could very well be from the great war.

When I pulled off the rear sight base the other day, I was amazed to find that the barrel underneath had not been blued and was just covered in an inch of rust and cosmoline. Though I did not like the sight at first, I was intrigued when I realized that I was probably the first person to see that part of the rifle possibly since it's re-work in the 1930s or even during it's time at the front lines in WW1.

On the note of ultrasonic cleaners, are there any recommendations since I have never gone out looking for these types of products ?
 
Here are photos of the rust on my Commission rifle. They are a little outdated as I have removed a good deal of rust from the barrel jacket but some still remains. The rusting was so bad that the wear and tear on the barrel jacket bluing that is exposed is nearly all gone (~20% left) while the underside that is in contact with the stock has about ~85-90% of bluing left. As you can see from the picture of the butt stock, there is still some dirt build up that I would like to remove. The photo where the difference in bluing on the barrel jacket is shown, you can see the portion near the left side of the image where the rear band would sit and has protected the bluing in that area. The barrel jacket now is generally smooth to the touch with little or no imperfections caused by rust pitting.

Photo 4

Photo 5

Photo 6

Photo 7

Photo 8

I will take some pictures of my C96 and post them later today to show the extent of exterior wear and tear.
 
I'd just soak the whole thing in Evapo-Rust (available at Canadian Tire). That thing works wonders on metal and only removes rust, while not damaging most finishes (nickel, etc). However, since gun blue is a form of rust, I might suspect that it'd remove it too.

Now, you have to decide on what you want... a gun which has rust spots all over or a gun that's rust free but needs to be reblued. Personally, I believe that I'd rather have a rust-free gun that I'd reblue myself than a gun that's infested with rust inside and out. Don't forget about the safety aspect of it too... a chamber that's full of pits and rust can easily go kaboom on you.

Besides... the guns you're referring to aren't worth a great bunch anyway (well, maybe except that C96), plus that 1888 Commission rifle appears to have no blue left anyway, only patina (rust). If you decide you want a completely rust-free gun, EvapoRust is the way to go. It kills rust like magic, lol! (and doesn't harm good metal at all)
 
762mm said:
I'd just soak the whole thing in Evapo-Rust (available at Canadian Tire). That thing works wonders on metal and only removes rust, while not damaging most finishes (nickel, etc). However, since gun blue is a form of rust, I might suspect that it'd remove it too.

Now, you have to decide on what you want... a gun which has rust spots all over or a gun that's rust free but needs to be reblued. Personally, I believe that I'd rather have a rust-free gun that I'd reblue myself than a gun that's infested with rust inside and out. Don't forget about the safety aspect of it too... a chamber that's full of pits and rust can easily go kaboom on you.

Besides... the guns you're referring to aren't worth a great bunch anyway (well, maybe except that C96), plus that 1888 Commission rifle appears to have no blue left anyway, only patina (rust). If you decide you want a completely rust-free gun, EvapoRust is the way to go. It kills rust like magic, lol! (and doesn't harm good metal at all)
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patina (rust) is the old finish........ and original
 
NO....Evapo-Rust will remove the blue..... Don't do it.

Use bronze wool or 0000 steel wool and oil. Or buff with a wire wheel. Looks to have old oil dried greese or varnish on the trigger guard. Try stripping it.

Keep posting your progress..
 
I'll go to Canadian tire tomorrow and pick up some 0000 steel wool. Any particular type of oil I should use ? If it is varnish or dried grease on the trigger guard, how would I go about stripping it off ? I doubt I can use regular varnish remover right ? The last thing I want to do is use some type of oil or product, put my Gewehr 98 back together, and find out later that the stock and/or metal have been damaged because they reacted unexpectedly to the products.

Thank you for the continued assistance everyone.
 
Any chance that the rifle may have been a Russiaqn capture at some point ? These guys sure love to shellac the hell out of everything they put their hands on ....
 
There does not appear to be any evidence of that. I have a RC Kar98k and the exterior is in poor-decent condition with the typical Russian stenciling of serial numbers to their parts, whether they match or not. The bolt has plum (or rust ?) colouring on the extractor which I have seen on my RC Kar98k's bolt.
 
Nabs,

In the pic of the receiver ring on your Gew98, those are rust blooms, not deep pits. A trick that works really well is this:

Get an old empty cartridge and crush the mouth in a vise to create a brass knife-edge. Use the knife edge to chisel off those rust spots. You will leave behind brass residue all over the receiver, ignore that for now. Just keep going till you break off the rust crusts.

Next use ultra-fine steel wool like you are going to buy at crappy tire. Coat the receiver in gun oil and lightly rub it over and over with the oily steel wool, this will take off the brass residue but leave the finish intact.

Should do the trick, I've done that many times to neutralize rust on older pieces like yours.
 
I will give that a try, just have to get ahold of some empty brass as I don't have any on on hand.

Here are some images of my Mauser C96 showing the extent of the pitting and gunk build up over the years. I removed a good deal of the rust (especially from underneath the hand grips) and from all over. I cleaned every part and it seems only the exterior shows it's age as the internals look like brand new (and match serial number wise). Is there any way I can clean the hand grips more thoroughly or am I out of luck ?

Photo 9

Photo 10

Photo 11

Photo 12

Photo 13

Photo 14

Photo 15
 
Pblatzz said:
NO....Evapo-Rust will remove the blue..... Don't do it.

Use bronze wool or 0000 steel wool and oil. Or buff with a wire wheel. Looks to have old oil dried greese or varnish on the trigger guard. Try stripping it.

Keep posting your progress..
Click to expand...

Bronze wool is the best choice if you don't want to F*&$ it up.
 
Nabs said:
I'll go to Canadian tire tomorrow and pick up some 0000 steel wool. Any particular type of oil I should use ? If it is varnish or dried grease on the trigger guard, how would I go about stripping it off ? I doubt I can use regular varnish remover right ? The last thing I want to do is use some type of oil or product, put my Gewehr 98 back together, and find out later that the stock and/or metal have been damaged because they reacted unexpectedly to the products.

Thank you for the continued assistance everyone.
Click to expand...

3in1 oil is good, just use lots to float the steel wool. the big pits, use the crushed case method.

The C96 looks like it needs a little TLC with the 0000 wool, leave the wood alone.

I use 1858 furnature stripper, works well on metal and wood. Get the paint, varnish and grease off.

Pete
 
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