S&W .38/200 (1905?) ww2 victory? Need expert help!
- Thread starter Jericho
- Start date
Its an old canadian army issue. Lots of people on here have one. The 38/200 is a British term ( .38 caliber, 200 grain bullet IIRC). The caliber is .38 Smith&Wesson. Very nice guns and excellent for beginers
Winchester still makes ammo with it. I actually have a box of 1945 army ammo sitting around somewhere.
pics
https://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=10415
Winchester still makes ammo with it. I actually have a box of 1945 army ammo sitting around somewhere.
pics
https://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=10415
Last edited:
No pics yet, I will try my best to get something in the next day or two. Here's a better description
Came into a S&W .38 S&W revolver today. It has a 6 inch barrel and plain walnut grips.
On the barrel, on the right side it says .38 S&W CTG with a funky arrow like thing pointing at it from each side of the phrase
On top it says Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA. Below that phrase is 'patented feb 6.06.sept14.09.dec29.14
On the left of the barrel it says SMITH & WESSON and then near the cylinder it has a crown with B A P (the a looks a little slanted to the left, like N without the last upward stroke on the N) and also has .38".767". Just below the .38 it says 3 1/2 tons.
On the top there is nothing about US Property. There are other miscellaneous crowns with BAP all over the revolver including on the cylinder.
On the left side above the trigger guard are 2 crossed swords pointing down and H 3 B in each groove. Sorta like in X (in the left part of the X, bottom part and right part. top part is clear)
On the right side, the S&W crest is worn a little, but it has MADE IN THE USA below the cylinder and has Three markings below it looking like /|\ and below that it says RAF
I was told it was a victory model, but the serial has no V, leading me to think otherwise. 301XX is on the cylinder arm, same S/N on the receiver (can't see either when cylinder is closed). However, intersting, on th ebottom of the barrel, the S/N is 696### which leads me to believe this is not the original barrel, yet it's markings coincide with the rest of the revolver.
It is infact chambered for .38 S&W, not .38 SPL, but I have not slugged the bore to find actual dimensions.
On, on the hammer, along it's 'spine', it says US REG PAT OFF, all together.
Could someone please help me identify what I have here? It would be GREATLY appreciated!
Came into a S&W .38 S&W revolver today. It has a 6 inch barrel and plain walnut grips.
On the barrel, on the right side it says .38 S&W CTG with a funky arrow like thing pointing at it from each side of the phrase
On top it says Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA. Below that phrase is 'patented feb 6.06.sept14.09.dec29.14
On the left of the barrel it says SMITH & WESSON and then near the cylinder it has a crown with B A P (the a looks a little slanted to the left, like N without the last upward stroke on the N) and also has .38".767". Just below the .38 it says 3 1/2 tons.
On the top there is nothing about US Property. There are other miscellaneous crowns with BAP all over the revolver including on the cylinder.
On the left side above the trigger guard are 2 crossed swords pointing down and H 3 B in each groove. Sorta like in X (in the left part of the X, bottom part and right part. top part is clear)
On the right side, the S&W crest is worn a little, but it has MADE IN THE USA below the cylinder and has Three markings below it looking like /|\ and below that it says RAF
I was told it was a victory model, but the serial has no V, leading me to think otherwise. 301XX is on the cylinder arm, same S/N on the receiver (can't see either when cylinder is closed). However, intersting, on th ebottom of the barrel, the S/N is 696### which leads me to believe this is not the original barrel, yet it's markings coincide with the rest of the revolver.
It is infact chambered for .38 S&W, not .38 SPL, but I have not slugged the bore to find actual dimensions.
On, on the hammer, along it's 'spine', it says US REG PAT OFF, all together.
Could someone please help me identify what I have here? It would be GREATLY appreciated!
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
In WW1 the British bought loads of them. Also in Ww2, and they wer not all "victory" models.
Of course not being "English Make" It had to pass proof in Britain because it might be one of those "shoddy colonial guns that couldn't be trusted"
Of course not being "English Make" It had to pass proof in Britain because it might be one of those "shoddy colonial guns that couldn't be trusted"
Pre-Victory S&W Military & Police, bit of info here http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/victory_model_smith_and_wesson.htm
BNP....British Nitro Proof, the GOV had to proof test all firearms prior to being release for sale to civvies.
Crane and crane recess are s/n to each other, the inside right grip, frame butt, Cylinder, extractor star, and bottom of barrel should all match.
BNP....British Nitro Proof, the GOV had to proof test all firearms prior to being release for sale to civvies.
Crane and crane recess are s/n to each other, the inside right grip, frame butt, Cylinder, extractor star, and bottom of barrel should all match.
Read that site but it doesn't really say much about pre-victories other than the US PROPERTY being stamped on the left strap, but it isn't on mine. Also, the lanyard ring is missing but there's no s/n stamped on the butt.
A real melon scratcher.
Oh and the bottom of the barrel s/n doesn't match the rest of the firearm, which is another confusing tidbit.
A real melon scratcher.
Oh and the bottom of the barrel s/n doesn't match the rest of the firearm, which is another confusing tidbit.
Bittermansbro
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Most likely a Lend-LEase gun. To get through the loophole about providing arms to a belligerent country before the US was involved, they 'leased' things to Britain, and as such, marked them all US Property as they expected to get them all back (Not really, but that was the loophole)
Anyhow much like the No4 Savages were marked. Early war gun.
(Not really, but that was the loophole)Anyhow much like the No4 Savages were marked. Early war gun.
Yes you are correct. Also another fellow has told me that it's a pre-victory British issue.
Is there anyone who can tell me what the crossed swords and the letters H 3 B mean? Swords look like this -> X with a dot in the top, H left, 3 bottom and B on the right.
I've also been in contact with Smith & Wesson and they'll have a historian of theirs do up an indepth research letter regarding my particular revolver's history for only 50 bucks!
I would say that there is little doubt that what you have is one of the many S&W revolvers acquired by Britain during WWII (officially designated "Smith & Wesson Pistol No. 2") for issue as "substitute standard" in lieu of the official British handgun at that time, namely the Enfield "Pistol, Revolver, No. 2", chambered for the British service cartridge originally referred to as the .380-200.
In fact, that cartridge was nothing more than a British military variant of the .38 S&W cartridge, initially produced with a 200 grain lead bullet until it was decided that contravened the Hague convention against expanding bullets in war, after which a 178 to 180 grain jacketed bullet was used. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38/200)
Britain did acquire .S&W revolvers during WWI - but they were "Hand Ejector" revolvers built on the larger "N" frame and chambered in .455, the standard British service revolver cartridge then.
The story behind Britain first acquiring these .38 revolvers is interesting ..... In 1939, S&W agreed to design (and later manufacture) what became known as the "Model 1940 Light Rifle, 9mm" but the design failed service trials. However, S&W were unable to repay the money advanced by Britain, having prematurely tooled up for production. They were saved from bankruptcy by acceptance of their offer to work off the debt by supplying the British with service-suitable revolvers. This S&W was able to do quite easily since .38 S&W was one of the standard chamberings of the "Military & Police" series of their commercial ".38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905, Fourth Change" built on the "K" sized frame. (Note that these were accordingly not "Lend-Lease" arms, they were effectively bought and paid for. Mind you, later on some revolvers were provided under the Lend-Lease program ....)
It is not well-known that this model of .38 S&W revolver was Canada's primary official handgun during WWII (adopted quite independently from Britain) - we acquired in excess of 118,000 of them!
To clarify further: the "K" frame "Military & Police" revolver is precisely what a U.S. "Victory Model" also is - albeit chambered in .38 Special. As the war progressed, the quality of finish on all of the military-issue revolvers (i.e. British, Canadian and U.S) was progressively downgraded.
FWIW, here is an image and caption scanned from Chamberlain & Taylerson's "Revolvers of the British Services, 1854-1954" -
In fact, that cartridge was nothing more than a British military variant of the .38 S&W cartridge, initially produced with a 200 grain lead bullet until it was decided that contravened the Hague convention against expanding bullets in war, after which a 178 to 180 grain jacketed bullet was used. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38/200)
Britain did acquire .S&W revolvers during WWI - but they were "Hand Ejector" revolvers built on the larger "N" frame and chambered in .455, the standard British service revolver cartridge then.
The story behind Britain first acquiring these .38 revolvers is interesting ..... In 1939, S&W agreed to design (and later manufacture) what became known as the "Model 1940 Light Rifle, 9mm" but the design failed service trials. However, S&W were unable to repay the money advanced by Britain, having prematurely tooled up for production. They were saved from bankruptcy by acceptance of their offer to work off the debt by supplying the British with service-suitable revolvers. This S&W was able to do quite easily since .38 S&W was one of the standard chamberings of the "Military & Police" series of their commercial ".38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905, Fourth Change" built on the "K" sized frame. (Note that these were accordingly not "Lend-Lease" arms, they were effectively bought and paid for. Mind you, later on some revolvers were provided under the Lend-Lease program ....)
It is not well-known that this model of .38 S&W revolver was Canada's primary official handgun during WWII (adopted quite independently from Britain) - we acquired in excess of 118,000 of them!
To clarify further: the "K" frame "Military & Police" revolver is precisely what a U.S. "Victory Model" also is - albeit chambered in .38 Special. As the war progressed, the quality of finish on all of the military-issue revolvers (i.e. British, Canadian and U.S) was progressively downgraded.
FWIW, here is an image and caption scanned from Chamberlain & Taylerson's "Revolvers of the British Services, 1854-1954" -
Fry:
I've just noticed that you may be getting a S&W history letter on the revolver. Well worth the money - cost is much less than such letters from Colt, by the way.
I have one on my WWI Canadian-purchase .455 Hand Ejector revolver ..... this is what you can expect to receive -
I've just noticed that you may be getting a S&W history letter on the revolver. Well worth the money - cost is much less than such letters from Colt, by the way.
I have one on my WWI Canadian-purchase .455 Hand Ejector revolver ..... this is what you can expect to receive -
