Saddles, Rests and Tripods - Can you explain to me...

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juliet lima

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Saddles, Rests and Tripods - Can you explain to me...

Saw the ATRS post for a Deathgrip and thought it was gonna be a post on how to properly hold a rifle so I clicked on it.

THIS QUESTION IS NOT MEANT TO BE A FLAME

...but why would you want to use one of these? I have never understood people shooting from a bench or a mechanical rest or sandbagging a rifle to death and then feeling pleased with their 'accuracy'...they haven't achieved accuracy...they've mechanically removed enough of themselves so they no longer have as much negative influence on the rifle.

I mean if you are pleased by this then why not simply pour a block of cement around your rifle so it can't move at all...'Hey look everyone, I can shoot sub MOA'

I always took the point of marksmanship to be about the shooters ability to interface with their rifle. Spend money to create a rig that has the ability sure. Spend money to isolate yourself to the point that you don't actually have to be skilled? Well again, what's the point?

For full disclosure I will say that I have and do 'isolated' myself too, because let's be real, unless you are shooting naked you're using something. In my .22 days it was a sling, glove and jacket. Now it's a bipod and a small sand sock. In the field I will use shooting sticks. They day I can't satisfy myself with these is the day I'll give up the game.
 
Someone a little more knowledgeable than myself will likely chime in but the idea behind these tripods, rests, etc is to help make the most accurate shot possible. Shooting with a good rest also eliminates the error of the shooter so that one can determine if it's them screwing up a bad group, or the rifle itself. Some rifles just won't shoot a 1" group at 100 yards if their life depended on it even with the best shooter in the world. The good rests help figure out if it is the rifle, or if it is the shooter.

I use a bipod on every rifle I shoot because I don't want to just spray lead at a target 3,4,500 yards away, I want the best opportunity to hit that target as possible, whether its a coyote or a steel plate.
 
Thanks for the reply.

I get that you might need to secure the rifle during testing or load development but I'd be more prone (get it, prone) to use sandbags than spend hundreds of dollars on a mechanical component..

Too, I don't think the ATRS death grip is made for load development or testing...from what I could understand it's for a style of shooting where you shoot with your rifle locked into a tripod which begs my initial question....where's the fun or achievement of removing yourself that much from the sport? To create bragging rights for an object you own exclusive of anything you bring to the table?
 
I suggest you try them for your self. They dont make the gun a lazer beam. They do tighten up your groups. But they then set a new standard to acheve.
3" groups off hand at 200m is nice but with a bench that group now sucks and you try for .750" groups at 200m.

There is a lot more then sticking the rifle in a rest and pulling the trigger. One of my 22's shoots better with a bipod then a rest just do to how you hold the rifle when you dont have to support its weight. And then recoil acts difffernt when your not supporting the rifle.

If you compair off hand shooting to bench shooting sure the groups are smaller, but your compairing apples to hammers. Take a look at what a shooter does from a rest and you try to useing a rest you will see that you have never used them before and may even find it harder then off hand.

Its just a differnt way to shoot, group size standard is A LOT smaller.

Kinda like, why shoot at 100m since its soo much easier then shooting at 1000m and why wouldnt anyone want to do the easy way. Its not easier, its just a differnt out come(sub .350" groups) and style of shooting.

Thats like saying shooting a shot gun is easy since there is so many pellets, well try skeet shooting, you wont be a pro even with 400bb's flying at the clay.
 
Look up "prs matches"... it is new shooting game where you are asked to shoot in various positions against the clock. Targets are at varying distances out to beyond 1000yds.

The point of all the bags, rests, tripods and such is to improve a shooters accuracy potential in unsteady positions. That's it.... make the job of hitting a small target way out there easier given the stage requirements.

Some matches will restrict the use of certain support devices... some stages will limit the gear that a competitor can use.

Can it help the hunter in a blind or a soldier in an overwatch situation? Of course, so there are real world practical applications as well as helping you get a higher score.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Look up "prs matches"... it is new shooting game where you are asked to shoot in various positions against the clock. Targets are at varying distances out to beyond 1000yds.

The point of all the bags, rests, tripods and such is to improve a shooters accuracy potential in unsteady positions. That's it.... make the job of hitting a small target way out there easier given the stage requirements.

Some matches will restrict the use of certain support devices... some stages will limit the gear that a competitor can use.

Can it help the hunter in a blind or a soldier in an overwatch situation? Of course, so there are real world practical applications as well as helping you get a higher score.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Im trying to imagine the Jtf2 Sniper standing with his tac 50 trying to make the 3450 yard shot.....
 
juliet lima said:
Saddles, Rests and Tripods - Can you explain to me...

Saw the ATRS post for a Deathgrip and thought it was gonna be a post on how to properly hold a rifle so I clicked on it.

THIS QUESTION IS NOT MEANT TO BE A FLAME

...but why would you want to use one of these? I have never understood people shooting from a bench or a mechanical rest or sandbagging a rifle to death and then feeling pleased with their 'accuracy'...they haven't achieved accuracy...they've mechanically removed enough of themselves so they no longer have as much negative influence on the rifle.

I mean if you are pleased by this then why not simply pour a block of cement around your rifle so it can't move at all...'Hey look everyone, I can shoot sub MOA'

I always took the point of marksmanship to be about the shooters ability to interface with their rifle. Spend money to create a rig that has the ability sure. Spend money to isolate yourself to the point that you don't actually have to be skilled? Well again, what's the point?

For full disclosure I will say that I have and do 'isolated' myself too, because let's be real, unless you are shooting naked you're using something. In my .22 days it was a sling, glove and jacket. Now it's a bipod and a small sand sock. In the field I will use shooting sticks. They day I can't satisfy myself with these is the day I'll give up the game.
Click to expand...

Most of these are shooting aids specifically for the PRS game although they can be used to great benefit in some hunting situations.
 
The point of tripods with a saddle and ball head on them isn't just so you can set it up at the range and shoot smaller groups standing than you could offhand. The point is to be able to make long distance, precise shots in field conditions when said field conditions make it impossible to go prone. This evolved from sniper teams (who generally already had a tripod for spotting purposes) would make saddles (with no clamping capability) that they could rest there rifles on/in to get more stable to make shots when the terrain made going prone impossible. The guy who created the Hog and Pig saddles is a retired USMC scout sniper. These kinds of setups (tripod, ballhead, saddle) are a standard part of the load out for military snipers these days. On the civilian side, their main uses would be long range hunting and shooting practical precision rifle field matches (look up the Rifleman's Team Challenge for a good idea). Although most guys carry one around at PRS matches (a tripod with saddle, that is) they generally only get used as rear support when shooting off barricades as the tight time limits normally make it unfeasible to actually set one up for use as intended. They work for the field matches because the time limits are more like 5-6 minutes for a 2 man team to identify, range and engage numerous targets vs the 90 second time limits in PRS matches.
 
The ATRS device is a copy of the US manufactured HOG Saddle. HOG standing for "Hunter Of Gunmen", as in enemy gunmen. USMC Scouts Snipers refer to themselves a HOGS. The HOG Saddle was developed by a USMC Scout Sniper veteran of multiple deployments in the GWOT. One of the truisms determined by the USMC Scout Sniper community is that "shots rarely occur from the prone". Operational experience in both urban and mountainous complex terrain indicates that most shots will by necessity of ground cover/rubble/window height/etc, be taken from the sitting, kneeling, or standing positions. Snipers must often maintain observation of an assigned sector or point target for hours on end before spelling off with his/her Spotter. Try doing that with shooting sticks. Or try engaging out to 1500 metres and beyond with sub-MOA precision fire from the standing unsupported position. Of course, you are going to use every means st your disposal to optimize your chances of success, precisely because it is not a sporting game. There is a very good reason why every graduating Scout Sniper in the USMC is issued a HOG Saddle and Manfrotto tripod.....because they work in the field and have been found superior for their particular needs than any other device available in the world, period. The use of such devices in some modern "gun games" such as PRS is simply the civilian world adopting military advancements for its own use. Or more than likely, US military veterans introducing what they know to be tried and true to their civilian shooting hobbies. Such rigs are seeing increased use for ultra long-range hunting as well as PRS, where other forms of mechanical shooting aide are similarly inadequate. Thus endeth the contemporary military history lesson.....
 
Thank you for all the replies. I appreciate it.

I spent three years working with Ed running the sniper shoot. I appreciate shooting in field conditions. When I was doing 3000+ rounds a year I could hold 1/4 moa off a bipod at 100 and 1/2 moa at 300. At 500 that started to open up though. My best 700m group in field conditions off an improvised rest (a log in this case) was sub 6 inches with one sighter but that was with a vector and a kestrel.

I'll check out those vids....thanks again for the replies
 
Shooting well off a tripod is its own skill set and is not easy. It is a much less stable than shooting from the prone.

The sport is evolving.

You say that back in the day you used a sling, jacket, and glove - those are tools as well and probably have a more singular purpose than what a tripod has.
 
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