Safe storage help!

rangebob said:
But the judge's definition was anything made of steel with a lock.
He had a couple kinds (cabinets, trunks -- all steel).
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Again, this is besides the point. The discussion is about how easy burglars will get his guns, not if wether or not a judge would approve of his storage. 2 completely different questions.
 
sewktbk said:
We're not talking about the legal definition here, we're simply talking about the fact that what he has is one of those 100$ CT cabinets thats far easier to break into than a 500$ dollar one. We are not discussing wether what he has is legal or not...I don't care about that....i'm simply telling him that he shouldn't feel THAT secure against burglars with his hidden metal box bolted to the wall... That WON'T be enough to stop a thief.
Click to expand...

UL's safe testing against burglary begins at TL-15. For most insurance purposes, a safe begins at a B rate. A B rate safe uses a 1/2" door and a 1/4" body, and a C rated safe has a 1" steel door with 1/2" steel walls. The average Liberty safe has 1/10" steel walls and door..
UL won't consider testing a 'safe' as a safe unless it has a 1/2" door and a 1/4" body.

Most 'gun safes' use 12-guage to 10-guage sheet steel. That steel is both too thin, and the wrong steel, to be considered a safe by UL. Many of them make the much easier 'residential secure container' UL rating.

By the current canadian legal definition, automobile trunks are safes. They are made of steel, hold contents and lock. At the same time it is easily defeated and not cabable of protecting their contents from theft.

Safes are pretty mysterious creatures for a reason. If everybody knew exactly what a safe was and how it worked, then it wouldn't be very secure.

Safes are a tool. Like all other tools, there are different tools for different jobs. If the tool is of higher quality, or performs multiple functions, then it may cost more than some of the others. Just like you wouldn't use a hammer on a screw, you wouldn't use a mere 'gun safe' to protect valuable assets.

In many residential uses, a gun safe may serve the owners needs well. Many that ask about gun safes are more concerned about their children and smash and grab thieves (the 4 minute burglary). Anything that locks will serve these purposes. However, as your youtube video shows, most of these gun safe companies have their customers believing that their safes will offer a great level of brute force resistance, and that is simply not true. (Mike Hargreaves's safe being an amazing example -- Working for two days, thieves used sledgehammers and blowtorches to blast open the 1,700-pound, concrete-and-steel Brinks safe. They alternated tools based upon time of day and the air quality.)

Safe + dog + alarm + hidden.
"hidden" will get you ridiculed in the newspaper -- but frequently "hidden" seems to work better than steel. I'm thinking of two cases where police were in the homes for many hours searching for firearms, and it was the seperate interrogation of the owners that led to where it was stored, and the irony that both were charged with unsafe storage. One being Bruce Montegue, and the other being an older gentleman of whom I can't recall his name but he had a wooden enclosure under the stairs that simply couldn't be found unless you were told exactly where it was.

This is not a safe according to UL, but is according to a judge:
hxxp://www.canadiansafe.ca/productdetail.cfm?product=2

These are a safe, according to everyone
hxxp://www.canadiansafe.ca/productdetail.cfm?product=44
hxxp://www.canadiansafe.ca/productdetail.cfm?product=60
 
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rangebob said:
UL's safe testing against burglary begins at TL-15. For most insurance purposes, a safe begins at a B rate. A B rate safe uses a 1/2" door and a 1/4" body, and a C rated safe has a 1" steel door with 1/2" steel walls. The average Liberty safe has 1/10" steel walls and door..
UL won't consider testing a 'safe' as a safe unless it has a 1/2" door and a 1/4" body.

Most 'gun safes' use 12-guage to 10-guage sheet steel. That steel is both too thin, and the wrong steel, to be considered a safe by UL. Many of them make the much easier 'residential secure container' UL rating.

By the current canadian legal definition, automobile trunks are safes. They are made of steel, hold contents and lock. At the same time it is easily defeated and not cabable of protecting their contents from theft.

Safes are pretty mysterious creatures for a reason. If everybody knew exactly what a safe was and how it worked, then it wouldn't be very secure.

Safes are a tool. Like all other tools, there are different tools for different jobs. If the tool is of higher quality, or performs multiple functions, then it may cost more than some of the others. Just like you wouldn't use a hammer on a screw, you wouldn't use a mere 'gun safe' to protect valuable assets.

In many residential uses, a gun safe may serve the owners needs well. Many that ask about gun safes are more concerned about their children and smash and grab thieves (the 4 minute burglary). Anything that locks will serve these purposes. However, as your youtube video shows, most of these gun safe companies have their customers believing that their safes will offer a great level of brute force resistance, and that is simply not true. (Mike Hargreaves's safe being an amazing example -- Working for two days, thieves used sledgehammers and blowtorches to blast open the 1,700-pound, concrete-and-steel Brinks safe. They alternated tools based upon time of day and the air quality.)

Safe + dog + alarm + hidden.
"hidden" will get you ridiculed in the newspaper -- but frequently "hidden" seems to work better than steel. I'm thinking of two cases where police were in the homes for many hours searching for firearms, and it was the seperate interrogation of the owners that led to where it was stored, and the irony that both were charged with unsafe storage. One being Bruce Montegue, and the other being an older gentleman of whom I can't recall his name but he had a wooden enclosure under the stairs that simply couldn't be found unless you were told exactly where it was.

This is not a safe according to UL, but is according to a judge:
hxxp://www.canadiansafe.ca/productdetail.cfm?product=2

These are a safe, according to everyone
hxxp://www.canadiansafe.ca/productdetail.cfm?product=44
hxxp://www.canadiansafe.ca/productdetail.cfm?product=60
Click to expand...

:confused:

I still fail to see why you bring all this up, it has nothing to do with the discussion i'm having with pubb....

by the way, snatch and grabbers WILL find and pry open a gun cabinet in 4 minutes or less...
 
Yogi05 said:
The laws are not about preventing theft, it's about safety.

OP, your set up works.
Click to expand...

Well...theft of a firearm is not really safe now is it :nest:

I agree with you though, his "setup" works according to the law. Good to go, never disagreed with that.
 
sewktbk said:
Well...theft of a firearm is not really safe now is it :nest:
I agree with you though, his "setup" works according to the law. Good to go, never disagreed with that.
Click to expand...

Of course it's not safe, and mine are stored to make theft as difficult as possible, but we all know, and have said here, that there's little can be done to prevent a determined thief. In the end, the laws are written with safety in mind.
(not arguing, we share the same opinion of this).
 
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