Same Gun Two Calibres 375 H&H or 458 W.M.

ObviousNovice

ObviousNovice

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Specifically ... Baikal's Model Zastava Z98 Bolt Action Rifle, at a great price from Lebarons for a very high powered rifle.

Now the only thing is, what calibre would be a good all around Calibre? Keep in mind, this is going to be mainly for large came, Eventually I want to do a Bear and moose hunt more north, and eventually God willing.... A buffalo hunt somewhere. Now, I do have a H&R Buffalo classic 45-70 which can handle some very high pressure loads. I did read somewhere that a fellow took his Marlin 45-70 with Garret ammo and took down most of the big African animals with those cartridges. Including an Elephant but don't quote me on that... Can we even get those Garret Cartridges in Canada?

Anyway, big game hunting on a budget is really what I'm going for.. Opinions everyone?

Thanks.

Dan.
 
If you are on a budget get a .308 to kill any moose you want. When you have enough $$ for Africa, buy whatever you want then. The 375 H&H is much more of an all around cartridge than the 458.
 
The 458 WM will be by far the best choice for keeping the elephants out of the sweet peas.
 
Gatehouse said:
If you are on a budget get a .308 to kill any moose you want. When you have enough $$ for Africa, buy whatever you want then. The 375 H&H is much more of an all around cartridge than the 458.
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Well got that covered, I own two .308's and a 30-06.





458. seem's like a pretty damn good bang for the buck. How are the rounds going to impact my wallet? Also anyone have any good reloading experience with this round?
 
go big or go home, get the 458. you can load it to 45-70 levels, or get a 300 grainer going 2700 fps. years ago i even read an article about a fellow that was trying for 4000 fps using sabots and i believe 30 cal bullets.
 
"...have a H&R Buffalo classic 45-70..." That'll kill any game you care to hunt.
"...put the bullet right behind the ear..." Actually into the slight depression on Dumbo's forehead with a .257 Rigby. Bell did it with a .303 British too.
"...big game hunting on a budget..." That isn't done with either a .375 H&H or a .458 Win. Neither cartridge is for an FNG on a budget either. Remington .375 H&H brass runs around $54.95 per 20. Any .458 is usually a special order. 30 plus years ago, 20 empty cases ran $50 though.
Guy came into the shop I worked in long ago. He was going to Africa and just had to have his own .458(you can rent 'em there). Bought a Win M70 African and 20 rounds of ammo. Picks the rifle up on a Friday evening. Saturday afternoon he comes in with the rifle, 18 loaded cartridges and two empties, asking us to sell it. The felt recoil is astounding. You should rethink the whole idea.
 
sunray said:
"...put the bullet right behind the ear..." Actually into the slight depression on Dumbo's forehead with a .257 Rigby. Bell did it with a .303 British too..
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.275 Rigby, aka, 7x57mm.

If you want to step to a larger calibre, get a .375. Much more versatile than the .458, capable of handling anything on the planet, and more than you need for 98% of North American hunting. You might also consider a 9.3x62, sort of a pocket .375.
 
sunray said:
"...have a H&R Buffalo classic 45-70..." That'll kill any game you care to hunt.
"...put the bullet right behind the ear..." Actually into the slight depression on Dumbo's forehead with a .257 Rigby. Bell did it with a .303 British too.
"...big game hunting on a budget..." That isn't done with either a .375 H&H or a .458 Win. Neither cartridge is for an FNG on a budget either. Remington .375 H&H brass runs around $54.95 per 20. Any .458 is usually a special order. 30 plus years ago, 20 empty cases ran $50 though.
Guy came into the shop I worked in long ago. He was going to Africa and just had to have his own .458(you can rent 'em there). Bought a Win M70 African and 20 rounds of ammo. Picks the rifle up on a Friday evening. Saturday afternoon he comes in with the rifle, 18 loaded cartridges and two empties, asking us to sell it. The felt recoil is astounding. You should rethink the whole idea.
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I think you need to re look up brass prices. I buy new R-P .300 H&H and .375 H&H cases for $42/50

Premium .375 bullets are ~60$/50, but cheap cup and core can be had for less. If you reload .375 H&H is not a crazy expensive proposition, not a budget cartridge, but premium reloaded ammo at ~ $1.60 a cartridge aint bad (calculated at 7 firings per casing).
 
I like mine in 375. It's essentially my go-to hunting rifle. You're definitely going to want to handload for it as buying worthwhile ammunition is quite expensive. I only ever bought 1 box of factory loads when I first got it and they were federals loaded with partitions for $100. Now I load 300gr TSX's for about $2 per shot and it used to be $1.60 before the price of TSX's went up and I had to start ordering them in(damned shipping...). Generally speaking though cheap factory loads are $60/box($3 per shot) and most handloads are about $1.50-$1.75. If you go with 220gr hornady FP designed for a 375 winchester it's about $1 per shot....that said I've dubbed these last ones varmint grenades and proven that point.

Also as a 458 vs 375 thing...the 375 is a 300m point and shoot gun with capabilities out to 500m fairly easily while the 458 is distinctly not. Bullet trajectory of a 375H&H is commonly equated to a 30-06(roughly). Your choice on what you want to do with it as one is a closer range gun than the other.
 
Indeed, man do things get screwed up when quoting on the Internetz. Bell used the .303, 7x57 (described by him and other Englishmen as .275 Rigby, which is the bore (land) diameter of 7mm, groove diameter remains standard .284"), and other military chamberings of the day.

For this choice, hands down the .375. The trajectory is the same as a .30-06, and it offers a bullet weight range of 200grs to 380grs excelling with all of them. There is nothing you can't hunt with a .375, and while extremely stout for new shooters, the recoil is manageable. It has been used successfully in hunts numbering thousands on all the nastiest stuff there is from Elephant to Lion. Mine will have hunted three of the big five by the end of Feb if all goes to plan and the animals show up.

.458 is much more of a niche stopping cartridge, they still shoot reasonably flat despite what many would think and the .458 WM has reasonable recoil (for very experienced shooters, can be severe for newer shooters). It's a tool you'd do well to have if you hunt Africa annually, otherwise .375 is the hands down choice. The closest my favourite PH came to dying was stopped by a .375, his .458 was at home. He's quite a fan, as am I.

It's a pretty versatile gun.

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Well, Can't argue with that evidence!


Thanks guys I think my Choice will be the 375. H&H

Much appreciated!

If anyone has more stories to offer let them be heard!
 
Marcel B. said:
Bell used to shoot elephants with a .257 Roberts, his favorite cartridge. He would put the bullet right behind the ear.
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History needs to be sorted out here!! Ned Roberts had not even necked down the 7X57 case when W.D.M. Bell was in his glory days of killing more than 1000 elephants. Bell used a 303 Brit briefly but found the cordite too unpredictable in the heat, and had his gun seize up several times due to pressure spikes. He also used a 6.5 X 54 briefly but his ammo supply dried up and he had to abandon the 6.5. He then fell upon the 275 Rigby or 7X57 Mauser (the Brits hated to give credit to the Germans for anything) and finished his elephant killing career with this because Africa was full of 7X57 ammo and as Bell said, he could carry three 275 Rigby cartridges for the bulk and weight of one N.E. cartridge.
Bell was the master of killing elephants and the "behind the ear" shot was just one in repetoir of shots he used, he actually favored the heart shot and only used the head shot under certain conditions, such as the elephant leaving.
Bell was a truly amazing little Scot who ran along with the herds of spooked elephants and heart shot every elephant in the herd with tusks.........while running!!
I highly recommend reading the three books written by Bell, about his lifes exploits, including a winter in the Yukon shooting moose, north and east of Dawson City, for the gold miners to eat.
Having read everything written by W.D.M. Bell and most things written about Bell, I can assure you at no time did he shoot elephants with a 257 Roberts.

I have done three hunts in Africa carrying nothing but my 375 H&H and shot everything from blue duiker to bongo to lion and hippo with it and 270 gn TSX bullets, at distances from several feet to 300 mtrs, if that isn't a versatile caliber, I don't know what is.

The 458 Win was designed by Winchester to compete with and give the same ballistics as the 470 NE in a compact bolt action rifle costing $200.00 instead of $20,000.00. It is designed to be used out to approx 50 mtrs as a stopping gun on heavy dangerous game and really has no other practical application, much like the 470 NE. It is not a versatile cartridge in any sense of the word, period.
 
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ObviousNovice said:
Well, Can't argue with that evidence!


Thanks guys I think my Choice will be the 375. H&H

Much appreciated!

If anyone has more stories to offer let them be heard!
Click to expand...

For .375 stories I have a couple here, scroll to the bottom there are two articles on the .375 H&H, Part II is at the bottom Part I is just above it, so don't start at the last one. :)

http://www.morrisonarms.com/category/hunting/

Good proper straightening out of the facts Douglas, thank you! The misinformation on such a sacred subject is sacrilege. ;)
 
There is another little known fact about the 375 H&H that needs more exposure........when Messers Holland and Holland designed and developed the .375 belted magnum, they designed it as a one stop all around medium bore rifle for the professional hunters of the day. With this in mind they worked very closely with Kynoch to develop 4 loads for it, a 235 gn expanding bullet @ 2900 fps, 270 gn expanding bullet @ 2700 fps for bigger game at more moderate ranges and two 300 gn loads @ 2500 fps, one expanding bullet and one "solid" or non-expanding bullet for the big boys. All 4 of these loads had to fall within a 4" circle at 100 mtrs, to meet their criteria and were made by Kynoch to do exactly this, with open sights !!! In fact Kynoch stated that in the hands of an exceptional rifleman their ammo for the .375 H&H would all fall into a 2 1/2" circle @ 100 mtrs.
So as you can see the .375 H&H belted magnum was designed from it's very inception to be an "all around" cartridge, for anything from light deer sized animals right up to elephants in a pinch. (Holland and Holland did NOT recommend their 375 for elephant and rhino)
 
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