Savage 110 Scout Williams Aperture Sights

[doowroh]

After great internal debate between whether to purchase a Ruger Gunsite Scout or a Savage 110 Scout, (for several reasons) I decided on the Savage 110 .308 Win, short action. At this stage the intended use is Ontario deer hunting and plinking inside of 150~200 meters. I'm also not a huge fan of the goofy forward mounted scout scope concept. So the plan is/was to shoot through the Williams peep sight - no scope if at all possible.

So I load up some .308 hand loads and headed to the range. I was shooting Sierra 30 cal 165 gn. HPBTs (#2140) with between 38.5 gn and 43.0 gn. of Varget. Published velocities right out of the Sierra manual are from 2400~2700 fps, however I'm expecting at least 200~300 fps less than that based on the 16.5" barrel length and the fact that you're not likely to match published velocities. I don't have a chronograph yet, so I don't have any idea of actual velocities, but I'm definitely not expecting to be shooting so hot that my POI is incredibly high. No pressure signs were observed on any of the brass.

So after running through all of the hand loads that I'd brought, I found that I'm shooting ~2" high at 100 meters (109 yards). As much as I'm not terribly upset about that, what I am upset about it that my rear sight elevator is set so damn low that it's:
a) off the scale
b) practically falling off of the mount
b) bottomed out onto the rear baffle of the bolt

Here are a few of my groups as well as the adjustment I have on the rear sight in order to shoot those groups. Go easy on me as it was my first time shooting irons at this range, and I was also playing with different powder loads.

I have opened an online ticket open with Savage, and they asked for me to send the rifle back in, until they figured out that I'm in Canada. This afternoon I started from scratch with Savage in Lakefield. No call-back from Lakefield yet.

Last edited by doowroh; for bad math
I initially, and incorrectly measured the front sight height, but Blastattack steered me straight.

The front sight measures ~11/16" (0.6875") which is more in line with my guess of 0.538" that Williams calls for. Admittedly, I'm not accounting for dovetails or barrel profile or any other engineering factors that are well above my pay grade. Although I can tell you that a taller front sight would help in this situation.

I've heard nothing but good things about Williams sights and "peep" sights until now. After having this issue, I have since heard from another CGNer that he had a similar issue shooting too high with his Savage 110 Scout shooting with the factory irons.

While I had intended to use this without a scope, if I do have to mount one I'd like it in the traditional location, directly over the action. Does anyone know where I can find a Weaver 99495 (Weaver Extended Multi Slot Base, Savage 110 w/ Accutrigger Short Action 0 MOA - 99495) in Canada? My LGS says they have 1 in stock, but can't verify it. They're 1.5 hours away so I'm not keen on that gamble, but I will keep hounding them. Amazon.ca lists it as well, but for twice the money. Bass Pro & Cabela's only list the comparable long action version. SMH

Thanks for looking, and for your suggestions if you have any.

 

[7.62Nato]

I'd hate to tell you but if williams says to start with a minimum .530ish I'd start there. Never had any issues with williams when paired with the correct front sight. In your case because you may not be able to change the height, you can try what I did. Ive had a sight(not williams) where it was doing the same thing. I adjusted my sight picture by painting the tip of the front sight post about 1/4 of the top and only using that portion as my sight picture instead of the entire post. You will have to do some testing until you have the correct sight picture and POI. The paint is there for a consistent sight picture. Worked for me.

 

[NorthernCX]

That William's sight is not the issue. You need a taller front sight FOR SURE! Had a similar issue with my Marlin 1895 Trapper and the factory Skinner peep but in reverse. Filed the front post, got it so I can adjust the rear without running out of room. Find a higher front sight.

Also, looks like #4 top pic is your huckleberry lol.

 

[doowroh]

I've now come across 3 separate reports (2 of which are now documented on online forums) of these guns shooting "too high" with the factory aperture sights. So it's not just me. I'm surprised at how few reports of this issue exist, although I can imagine that many people with this gun started from day-one with an intermediate/long eye relief scope of some sort (since that's all the rage with these) and are possibly completely unaware that their BIUs are next to useless. It's also possible that Savage just hasn't been selling many of these rifles? Another option is that these people end up dismissing that they can't hit their POA with the factory sights, and then put a scope on it.

New 110 Scout Rifle, factory peep sights are not workable (Savageshooters.com)

 

[salarguy]

I've now come across 3 separate reports (2 of which are now documented on online forums) of these guns shooting "too high" with the factory aperture sights. So it's not just me. I'm surprised at how few reports of this issue exist, although I can imagine that many people with this gun started from day-one with an intermediate/long eye relief scope of some sort (since that's all the rage with these) and are possibly completely unaware that their BIUs are next to useless. It's also possible that Savage just hasn't been selling many of these rifles? Another option is that these people end up dismissing that they can't hit their POA with the factory sights, and then put a scope on it.

New 110 Scout Rifle, factory peep sights are not workable (Savageshooters.com)

I've owned a yaffle of Williams Fool-proof (FP) sights. I've always gone with their suggestions when the front factory sight wasn't suitable and they never disappointed me.

 

[doowroh]

I’m actually planning to call Williams tomorrow. I’m not going from any first hand experience, but I’ve heard that dealing with Savage Canada (this rifle is both brand new and bone stock) for warranty/service can be quite painful. I hope I’m wrong on that one though.

 

[Blastattack]

After great internal debate between whether to purchase a Ruger Gunsite Scout or a Savage 110 Scout, (for several reasons) I decided on the Savage 110 .308 Win, short action. At this stage the intended use is Ontario deer hunting and plinking inside of 150~200 meters. I'm also not a huge fan of the goofy forward mounted scout scope concept. So the plan is/was to shoot through the Williams peep sight - no scope if at all possible.

So I load up some .308 hand loads and headed to the range. I was shooting Sierra 30 cal 165 gn. HPBTs (#2140) with between 38.5 gn and 43.0 gn. of Varget. Published velocities right out of the Sierra manual are from 2400~2700 fps, however I'm expecting at least 200~300 fps less than that based on the 16.5" barrel length and the fact that you're not likely to match published velocities. I don't have a chronograph yet, so I don't have any idea of actual velocities, but I'm definitely not expecting to be shooting so hot that my POI is incredibly high. No pressure signs were observed on any of the brass.

So after running through all of the hand loads that I'd brought, I found that I'm shooting ~2" high at 100 meters (109 yards). As much as I'm not terribly upset about that, what I am upset about it that my rear sight elevator is set so damn low that it's:
a) off the scale
b) practically falling off of the mount
b) bottomed out onto the rear baffle of the bolt

Here are a few of my groups as well as the adjustment I have on the rear sight in order to shoot those groups. Go easy on me as it was my first time shooting irons at this range, and I was also playing with different powder loads.

I have opened an online ticket open with Savage, and they asked for me to send the rifle back in, until they figured out that I'm in Canada. This afternoon I started from scratch with Savage in Lakefield. No call-back from Lakefield yet.

Has anyone else had trouble like this with Williams aperture sights?
According to the p.21 of the Williams Gun Sight Catalog the "WGRS-Savage" (for round receivers) requires a 538M front bead sight, which suggests .538" high.

I've measured the front sight of this rifle and measured pretty damn close to 0.4375" or 7/16" (~9/16" in the first image, less ~0.125" or 1/8" for the empty space at the end of the ruler). So I'm finding my front sight is under 0.5" where Williams wants over 0.5". Admittedly, I'm not accounting for dovetails or barrel profile or any other engineering factors that are well above my pay grade. Although I can tell you that a taller front sight would help in this situation.

I've heard nothing but good things about Williams sights and "peep" sights until now. After having this issue, I have since heard from another CGNer that he had a similar issue shooting too high with his Savage 110 Scout shooting with the factory irons.

While I had intended to use this without a scope, if I do have to mount one I'd like it in the traditional location, directly over the action. Does anyone know where I can find a Weaver 99495 (Weaver Extended Multi Slot Base, Savage 110 w/ Accutrigger Short Action 0 MOA - 99495) in Canada? My LGS says they have 1 in stock, but can't verify it. They're 1.5 hours away so I'm not keen on that gamble, but I will keep hounding them. Amazon.ca lists it as well, but for twice the money. Bass Pro & Cabela's only list the comparable long action version. SMH

Thanks for looking, and for your suggestions if you have any.

Your measuring is very bad. If it measures 9/16" on your ruler, and the ruler starts 1/8" up, then you ADD that 1/8" to the original measurement. Your front sight is approximately 11/16" above the top of the barrel, or .6875".

 

[salarguy]

your measuring is very bad. If it measures 9/16" on your ruler, and the ruler starts 1/8" up, then you add that 1/8" to the original measurement. Your front sight is approximately 11/16" above the top of the barrel, or .6875".

this ^^^^^^^^^

 

[doowroh]

Your measuring is very bad. If it measures 9/16" on your ruler, and the ruler starts 1/8" up, then you ADD that 1/8" to the original measurement. Your front sight is approximately 11/16" above the top of the barrel, or .6875".

Um..... damn. That’s embarrassing.
I’ll edit my original post. Thank you.


The questions still remains though, why am I (as well as others) shooting too high, despite the rear sight being at its lowest setting? Am I missing something (else)? LOL.

 

[Blastattack]

Um..... damn. That’s embarrassing.
I’ll edit my original post. Thank you.


The questions still remains though, why am I (as well as others) shooting too high, despite the rear sight being at its lowest setting? Am I missing something (else)? LOL.

Hard to say precisely. Could be that the rear sight is just too high and they didn’t put enough thought into the design or execution of the iron sight system. In fact, that is very likely the true cause of all the issues. They didn’t actually expect anyone to use the irons, so they just kinda winged it. An even higher front sight, or a lower rear would be your only real options.

 

[doowroh]

So in the last week I've been in touch with Savage USA, Savage Canada (Lakefield) and even Williams Gun Sight Company.

Williams basically said that I had the wrong front sight, but couldn't wrap their head around the fact that it was a factory rifle/front sight.

Savage USA deals with all warranty/customer service inquiries, and if you're in Canada, they basically just manage the return, and get you to ship your gun to Savage Canada (Lakefield). The rep is spoke to suggested that I shoot what they use as their "accuracy load", which for .308 is Federal loaded with Sierra MatchKing 168 gn. Presumably this means Federal GMM 168 gn.

The following day I got a call from Savage Canada (Lakefield). They said that the Lakefield factory closes down for the first half of July, but seconded that I should shoot the Federal Sierra 168s before sending the rifle to them. Surprisingly they asked me what *I* would do to fix it, as if they either didn't really understand what I was talking about, but I suspect it was more likely that they weren't sure what they could even do for me.


So today I shot a box of Federal GMM with Sierra 168s. The rifle is still shooting too high. High enough that I'm probably zeroed for 175~200 yards. Based on the published ballistics, that puts me ~2-3" high at 100 yards, and ~2" low at 200 yards. That's not terrible, other than my rear sight is as low as it can go, and I'm out of adjustment if I want/need to come down.

Here's my best 5 SHOT group through the factory peep sights at 100m (109 yards).

So, come mid-July, I'll likely be shipping it off to Savage... Not really how I wanted to start this romance.

I'm considering a DNZ scope mount to mount one of my existing 1" scopes for load development and maybe even hunting.

 

[doowroh]

Just got my Savage Scout back. I haven't been able to get to the range to shoot/evaluate it yet.
What are you're thoughts on the barrel being "untrue".

 

[TheTooner]

I think they mean it was put together with the barrel and action not correctly aligned, i.e. "true" to each other, and they have corrected that.