There's a Savage No.4 for sale on the EE and I have a question for those who are more knowledgeable than I regarding Lee Enfields. In the pics, the stock shows the "Ishy" screw. Does anyone know FOR SURE if any of the Savage rifles could, or would, have ended up in east india? The gentleman selling it is asking premium pricing from what I could see, so either the screw is part of it's history or it's a restored "Bubba" job. After all these years, who knows how many hands the rifle went through? Thanks in advance.
Savage No. 4 question (for all you Lee Enfield gurus out there)
- Thread starter LawrenceN
- Start date
The Indians and other eastern nations never questioned who made the No4 rifles they bought. As long as they went bang when requested all was well.
The dreaded Ishy screw is a very good indication the rifle saw Indian or Pakistani service.
The Savages could very well have seen service in India. Until 1947, India was a Brit colony. Very much doubt there were any No. 4's on general issue in the Indian Army though.
Can't imagine any Indian government spending money on a screw anyway.
Can't imagine any Indian government spending money on a screw anyway.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
A screw was a pile cheaper than repairing or replacing a split fore end.
India never made the No4 rifle, but they sure did use and overhaul a pi$$pot full of them. I suggest a read of the Skennerton and Stratton books on the Lee-Enfield rifles for more info. Until quite recently P&S was selling ex-Indian No4s of all breeds and some were very nice once you got beyond the funky stocks and layers of storage grunge from the Black Hole of Calcutta. I picked up 3 nice LBs from Jean several years ago which cleaned up quite nicely showing unscathed original blue LB finish on the metal and very pristine bores. 2 of them were post-war LB overhauls and were marked as such. I installed 3 replacement sets of LB wood and stock metal, LB mags, and a few other pieces of LB marked "this and that's" to make them correct and was very pleased with the outcome. To look at them you'd think they stayed home and totally missed the boat to India.
No4 rifles sure made it around the bazaars in former Brit colonies around the world. Greece got a swack of LB rifles, among others. I've seen them carried by various palace guards and police in places like Egypt and Turkey. I once had a nice Savage that was South African marked. We had quite a bunch of No4s in war reserve stocks until the late 1970s when they suddenly went away, sort of coincidental with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan where I imagine more than a few have lingered on to be pointed back at us.
I have a brand-new post-Independence SMLE here. It has had 3 rounds through it since I removed the factory grease.
It HAS the "Dreaded Ishy Screw" and at least EIGHT threaded-rod preventive repairs to the woodwork.
I think the Indians had so much success with the Screw in their tremendously-varied and harsh climate that they simply did wood repairs on a preventive basis and then issued the rifles, knowing that there would not be many issues in Service.
After all, no civilisation lasts 5000 years without learning SOMETHING.
It HAS the "Dreaded Ishy Screw" and at least EIGHT threaded-rod preventive repairs to the woodwork.
I think the Indians had so much success with the Screw in their tremendously-varied and harsh climate that they simply did wood repairs on a preventive basis and then issued the rifles, knowing that there would not be many issues in Service.
After all, no civilisation lasts 5000 years without learning SOMETHING.
I always go by the adage "buy the (whatever) not the story. For a Savage made rifle with the "Ishy| screw to be described as "This rifle has Not been Arsenal Referbished/Refinished, Bubba has never touched it & there are ZERO marks anywhere on it from it being FTR'd. The bluing is thin in a few spots but still there & origonal. " is an outright mistruth to put it mildly. The pictures tell the story- nothing in the ad can hide the fact it has been touched, just because it wasn't marked in India as being torn apart and rebuilt doesn't mean it can be described as completely "origonal" (sic). It may not have been "referbished" (sic) but it had certainly been REFURBISHED. A reasonable offer in the current marketplace would be about half of the listed asking price. You have legitimate concerns about the description and could probably find a much better example for similar or less money in many cases.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Purple, the center bedding method you mentioned, can you describe how it was done? I have a '42 LB from that P&S batch that the fore end has no tip bearing on the barrel. It seems floated in some way. I won't touch it though, it shoots really well just the way it is, and I love that rifle for all it has picked up in its travels Ishy screwed and all.
If you look down on a No4 forestock you will see the usual 3 milled out lightening cut-outs or voids along the bottom of the stock channel. The center bearing method involves glueing a 1.5 inch long wooden insert into the barrel channel between the first and second lightening cuts as you look at the stock from the rear. This insert is worked down until the barrel rests in a concave on the surface of it. This replaces the normal barrel contact/pressure point at the tip of the forestock. There is no barrel contact with the forestock at any point other than the glued in insert. Apparently a metal pressed in shim was also used in place of the glued in wooden insert. I have never seen a picture/drawing of this shim or the shim itself. A lot of No4 target rifles were re-jigged with this type of bedding as it was thought be an improvement on the normal forestock end bedding system.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
I may have to take a look at that one and see what is going on in there. I've always wondered how it shot so well with no fore end tip pressure.
Indian Security Forces were equiped with both SMLE & No.4 rifles, but from what i read they weren't all that well trained , shortage of range time and ammo, being a huge problem
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Seems I read a similar report. Police forces only having scant/initial firearms training during thier 'basic' police training course.
Only the anti-terrorist police teams, and of course the army had more range time.
