School me on 30-30
- Thread starter Foxer2373
- Start date
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
Lol at modern! Not sure which version of the calibers you have listed, but the 375 H&H is over a century old, 9mm Parabellum is close to 120 years old, .338 WM introduced in the 50s, .223 was designed around the AR-15 in the 50s, but certainly wasn't the first "high velocity" varmint cartridge, as 22-250 after many years of being a wildcat was adopted around the 30s IIRC, and the 6.5x55 Swede has been around for nearly 130 years... Most of the new 6.5 cartridges are mostly smaller case, and higher pressure compromises of the grand old Swede. The .260 Remington is basically a ballistic twin that fits a short action bolt. Ironically, your .44 Magnum (if it is), is probably one of your more "modern" guns...
The 30-30 Winchester came out in 1895, so it's pretty much as modern as the 9mm. Then original ballistics were somewhere around 1900 fps with a 160 gr. bullet which was more or less the standard. Reportedly it's killing power was marveled upon, as the effect on game vs. a slower bullet was "like lighting striking". With the 170 gr. bullet (a better choice) and new powders, the 30-30 kills better than ever, with MV around 2200.
That kind of ballistic potential kills stuff every day. If you check out that stupid long range hunting show, those bullets probably aren't even hitting as hard as a 30-30 at most hunting distances.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
Of course if you just want to shoot cheap, as you say, you could load cast for your .44 and 45-70 as well.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
Actually all the buffalo were pretty well killed off before the 30-30 made it's entrance.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
That be true fer sure. I'll bet that grandpa's 30-30 wore just the factory iron sights to boot.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Yeah sure, with the right bullet, weight and range I would likely hunt most large game with the 6.5cm. I’d want a bullet that tends to hold together well and penetrate but that’s nothing new anyway. Shot placement as always is key, something in the 140-143gr preferably over a lighter bullet.
That said I don’t have either a 30-30 or a 6.5cm but that doesn’t mean they aren’t up to the task if you do your part. I still hunt with the ole .303 Brit, I enjoy it a lot and will likely continue to hunt with it for the foreseeable future. My no.4 loaded with 180gr is what I automatically grab, it’s like an old friend beside me in the bush.
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Smaller 45-70.
When you have them both in the safe....imagine....which do you pick. My bet.would.be.on the 45-70.
When you have them both in the safe....imagine....which do you pick. My bet.would.be.on the 45-70.
ChromeArty
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Sunshine Coast (PR)
Geez! you would want to hope that the wind is right, heard those 30-30s fall from the sky
To me, the .30-30 is synonymous with the classic, old lever action rifles ie; 94, 336, 99 et al... but I do enjoy maximizing performance with the cartridge by shooting long spire bullets out of my Ruger No.1. I am down to only two No.1's at the moment, an "A" in .30/30 and an "S" in .45/70... they are a fun pair... and I don't think that I will ever be without a Winchester M94 Pre-64.
Hard to disagree with that. Unfortunately a majority of the older Marlins are in rather poor condition. For handloading with jacketed and low velocity lead alloy bullets, a microgroove Marlin would in all likelihood work just as well. Where, (IMHO), this unravels is with dirty bores. Micro-groove does not work well if dirty.
BYW: My Marlin is a wavy top in 35 Remington. Nice condition and shoots well.
Rifling can be described or advertised as Ballard rifling, or Ballard Style rifling, and actually not be as good as Micro-groove. And I'll explain. Marlin championed the Micro-Groove. I rather like this explanation, so I'll quote some interweb scholar "Micro-groove rifling creates a bore with many more lands and groves than conventional rifling, this results in a bullet or bullet jacket that is not deeply grooved or distorted as conventionally made barrels. The less distortion, the greater the accuracy."
And for the most part, this is true. Conventional rifling, or Ballard rifling, takes time to manufacture properly, and button rifling is quicker and cheaper to manufacture. Even quicker is micro-groove button rifling. From what I've been able to learn, conventional Ballard rifling was cut one groove at a time, and typically was cut to a depth of 0.004" to 0.005", For example a typical 30 cal has a bore of 0.300" and the grooves are 0.308". In 30 cal. 4 or 5 grooves cut 0.004" deep would grip the bullet properly and all was good. And this distorts the bullet, as the bullet leaves the muzzle, the lands in the rifling have swaged the bullet down 0.008". To lessen this distortion an odd number of lands are common, with odd lands, the diameter of the bullet is only reduced in diameter half as much as rifling that has opposing lands. In theory, micro-groove has twice as many grooves, only half as deep. A 30 cal micro-groove barrel will have a bore of 0.304" to 0.305" and the grooves will be from 0.0015" to 0.002" deep. The area of the total bore will be the similar to a conventional rifle bore, but the grooves will only swage the bullet 1/2 as deep.
Unfortunately grooves that are only 0.0015" to 0.002" deep will crud up quicker that grooves that are wider and deeper.
This thread is for the 30-30, but my horrible micro-groove experience is with a Marlin 1894 in 44 Magnum. It is advertised as having Ballard style rifling. And if you look down the bore, you will see, IIRC, 6 grooves, and they are similar in width to the lands. In reality it is still a micro-groove barrel, Marlin just put in half as many grooves and gave it that Ballard style look. In addition they kept the micro-groove dimensions, a bore dia. of 0.424" and a groove dia of 0431", MINIMUM and with a twist of 1:38. Minimum bore & groove area is 0.1435 sq in. Just for comparison normal 44 magnum dimensions are 0.417", 0,429" MINIMUM, and a twist of 1:20. Minimum bore & groove area is 0.1405 sq in. Again, IMHO, the new Marlin style Ballard rifling works just as poorly as the original micro-groove, and perhaps even worse because it lacks the perpendicular land area to grip the bullet.
In addition, to compound or perpetuate this travesty of dimensional ignorance, Marlin paid for and established the SAAMI spec for the 44 Magnum Rifle, and that spec was for their 12 groove micro-goove barrel. Therefore most North American 44 magnum rifles are built with the same twist 1:38 and the same shallow grooved oversized bore. The CIP spec is completely different, and my Brazilian built Rossi is spec'd the same as our handgun specs, and it works fine. I sold my Marlin 1894, because it would really only shoot jacketed with any consistency, and a cast load for it wouldn't work well in my hipguns, and that is not good for Cowboy Action.
There is no SAAMI spec for Marlin micro-groove in 30-30. Therefore Marlin has to, or should follow the SAAMI minimum bore & groove area spec. From my research, the only issue is that in some instances or some rifles will not be capable of achieving accuracy at the same velocity as with pre micro-groove barrels. 1600 fps max for most micro-groove barrels, according to my research.
My point is: It's OK to buy a new Marlin 30-30. Just carefully look it over before buying. Avoid the ones with crooked sights, miss matched and ill fitting wood. The big loop laminate would be my choice.
Nitro
I have a big loop laminate Remlin carbine in 30-30, it's actually quite a heavy little beast, shoots well, no complaints there. One of the nose cap screws was stripped but that was the only defect with it out if the box, Gravelles sent me new ones no charge.
droid1963
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Exactly. Untested in the real world.
