School me on Garands

[SPACEFORCE]

Ok so I'm looking at the Breda M1 Garand Rifle w/ Wooden Crate (TIPO-2) - 7.62x51mm, 24 OR the Springfield M1 Garand for my first surplus rifle.

1-Whats the TIPO 2 designation?
2-Is the Breda rifle better than the Springfield being more money or is it availability?
3-What should I look out for with the M1 as far as potential issues?
4-Theyre designated 308/7.62x51 are they actually interchangeable calibre wise?

Appreciate any information

 

[formerfarmer]

The M1 Garand is chambered in 30-06 because the 1903 Springfield rifle it replaced was 30-06. If you fire heavy [over 150 grain] modern ammo, they tend to bend and or break the operating rod.


The Breda M1's are sometimes chambered in 308 or not. As much as anything it has to do with availability and price of ammo.

Most of the basic parts are interchangeable but not everything. You definitely will not switch between 308 and 30-06 in the same rifle.

 

[Jahnj0584]

308 is a 30-06 receiver with a block in the action to stop you from adding a longer round. The barrel is obviously chambered for the shorter round.

 

[SPACEFORCE]

The M1 Garand is chambered in 30-06 because the 1903 Springfield rifle it replaced was 30-06. If you fire heavy [over 150 grain] modern ammo, they tend to bend and or break the operating rod.


The Breda M1's are sometimes chambered in 308 or not. As much as anything it has to do with availability and price of ammo.

Most of the basic parts are interchangeable but not everything. You definitely will not switch between 308 and 30-06 in the same rifle.

As far as caliber I meant can you use 308 and 7.62 without an issue?

 

[bearhunter]

As far as caliber I meant can you use 308 and 7.62 without an issue?

That is a question which has been asked a thousand times over. NO DISS INTENDED.

Garands have an operating pressure range, which is achieved with medium burn rate powders.

There are fixes for op rods, which include cutting a bit out of the sharp corner, which will allow them to flex a bit and not crack at that point.

When slower powders are used spike gas pressures, close to the muzzle are increased and cause violent extractions, as well as maybe damage to the op rod.

Way more to it than this, but you get the gist. Google is your friend on this.

The Italians modified their Garands to shoot the pressures and gas generated by 7.62 Nato issue ammunition, with appx 150 grain bullets.

Commercial ammunition can generate slightly lower or much higher pressures, depending on the load.

I believe surplus ammunition, mostly Chinese manufacture is still available from some outlets. I've used it in the past without issues, other than it tends to leave a lot of carbon fouling all through the rifle's barrel and gas tube.

They're good rifles, fun to shoot, etc. However, they do require a bit more knowledge and maintenance than bolt actions. You should also pick up a maintenance manual for the M1 Garand, if you purchase one.

If you hand load, try to save your cases, which the rifle will throw in different directions, drop them at your feet, or fling them ten meters away.

The thing about handloading is you can build reloads which you know will be a duplicate of 7.62x51 Nato.

Don't mess with what isn't broken. These rifles will work well with heavier bullets, loaded to the proper pressures.

Most manuals have loads listed that duplicate NATO SPEC PRESSURES.

This is 85 year old tech, it isn't made to present standards and you can't expect it to be as friendly.

If you aren't sure about something, don't do it.

The M1 Garand wasn't soldier proof, but it was one of the best at the time it was issued. It mostly works flawlessly if it's properly maintained, lubricated at the proper points, and fed proper ammunition.

 

[SPACEFORCE]

That is a question which has been asked a thousand times over. NO DISS INTENDED.

Garands have an operating pressure range, which is achieved with medium burn rate powders.

There are fixes for op rods, which include cutting a bit out of the sharp corner, which will allow them to flex a bit and not crack at that point.

When slower powders are used spike gas pressures, close to the muzzle are increased and cause violent extractions, as well as maybe damage to the op rod.

Way more to it than this, but you get the gist. Google is your friend on this.

The Italians modified their Garands to shoot the pressures and gas generated by 7.62 Nato issue ammunition, with appx 150 grain bullets.

Commercial ammunition can generate slightly lower or much higher pressures, depending on the load.

I believe surplus ammunition, mostly Chinese manufacture is still available from some outlets. I've used it in the past without issues, other than it tends to leave a lot of carbon fouling all through the rifle's barrel and gas tube.

They're good rifles, fun to shoot, etc. However, they do require a bit more knowledge and maintenance than bolt actions. You should also pick up a maintenance manual for the M1 Garand, if you purchase one.

If you hand load, try to save your cases, which the rifle will throw in different directions, drop them at your feet, or fling them ten meters away.

The thing about handloading is you can build reloads which you know will be a duplicate of 7.62x51 Nato.

Don't mess with what isn't broken. These rifles will work well with heavier bullets, loaded to the proper pressures.

Most manuals have loads listed that duplicate NATO SPEC PRESSURES.

This is 85 year old tech, it isn't made to present standards and you can't expect it to be as friendly.

If you aren't sure about something, don't do it.

The M1 Garand wasn't soldier proof, but it was one of the best at the time it was issued. It mostly works flawlessly if it's properly maintained, lubricated at the proper points, and fed proper ammunition.

Very interesting...Thanks
So If I was to use 7.62x52 PPU although its still the same spec 7.62x51 it will/could over gas and still potentially be an issue for the rifle parts themselves?

 

[Hitzy]

Had my $300 (2000's era prices) Breda M1 out a few weeks ago, still shoots great, accurate, reliable, recoil is mild, had some kids shooting it that never fired a rifle before and had big smiles.

 

[bearhunter]

Very interesting...Thanks
So If I was to use 7.62x52 PPU although its still the same spec 7.62x51 it will/could over gas and still potentially be an issue for the rifle parts themselves?

I've never shot the PPU, but if it's built to NATO specs, as far as pressures go, it should be fine in the Italian built rifle.

You need to do your own due diligence, rather than relying on me or most others here.

You use the term "over gas" in your reply to my post. I never used that term in my reply for a reason.

The M1 Garand was built to operate around a cartridge generating 48,000psi or less. When the 7.62 Nato round was first introduced, it generated similar pressures. After that, it can get confusing.

The M1 Garand can handle higher pressures, how much higher depends on the individual rifle.

When the 7.62x51 Nato cartridges were loaded for FNs as an example they were loaded to similar pressures, when the US loaded it for the M14 pressures were higher

It got to be so much of a problem that many rifles were fitted with adjustable gas ports.

Some of the recent Hirtenberger 7.62x51, which is occasionally still available, is HOT. To HOT? Maybe as a steady diet.

Spain had their own version of 7.62x51, called the CETME. It was loaded to give similar velocities at lower pressures, but with lighter 125 grain bullets.

The list goes on.

The M1 Garand has all sorts of after-market bits available to allow it to handle HOT loads. Adjustable gas cylinders, heavier recoil/return springs, etc.

You will have to deduce what your rifle can handle by doing due diligence.

Don't take the word of someone who hasn't seen the rifle or knows what they're doing to persuade you to try something. Parts can be difficult to get and expensive because they have to be hand-fitted.

Remember, the tech in these rifles is 80+ years old. The Danes and Italians made them as well as several US companies. Are they all built to the same standard?

Well all I can tell you is they were built to the standard of the day they were made.

 

[RifleDude]

For new M1 owners, there's a sticky at the top of this forum that you should read. Unfortunately, some of the pictures are no longer there but there's still a ton of excellent information.

 

[tiriaq]

The Tipo 2 rifles were originally .30-06, and were converted to 7.62 NATO. The barrels were shortened at the breech, re-machined and re-installed. About 1/2". Stocks and operating rods were shortened to match.

I had my M-1 professionally rebarreled to .308/7.62x51. Gouged original chamber. NM barrel. Shoots like a house on fire. NATO ball, appropriate handloads are just fine. High muzzle pressure is to be avoided to prevent operating rod damage. In my rifle, 155 Sierra MKs w/46gr Varget shot really well. Last time it was at the range, IVI ball worked great.

If you are buying a M-1, keep in mind that a lot of the rifles out there have been assembled from parts by hobbyists. By and large, I would avoid these, simply because you don't know what parts were used, nor do you know the knowledge or skill level of the amateur who put the rifle together. Probably the most common issue rifles are the ones imported from Denmark. Most of these are rebuilds, but they were rebuilt in arsenals by professionals.

From a standpoint of ammunition convenience, a Tipo 2 makes a lot of sense. An actual service rifle that uses readily available ammunition.

 

[Jay]

Ok so I'm looking at the... Springfield M1 Garand for my first surplus rifle.
Appreciate any information

My wife asked me what I wanted for my 50th Birthday & I said a CMP Expert Grade M1 Garand...

An email to Prophet River had me in contact with OIF in Ohio, who exports firearms to Prophet River...

A search of Gunbroker found exactly what I was looking for... A Springfield M1...

An email to OIF about the rifle I found on Gunbroker had them buying the rifle & exporting it tout suite to Prophet River...

I fired it for the first time ON my birthday to sight it in. I fired it for the second time at the EOSC Spring Milsurp Match AND WON!!!

I love my CMP Expert Grade Springfield M1 Garand. And I love my wife!

Cheers
Jay
P.S. My rifle's serial number shows it was made 30 years to the month before I was born... How cool is that!

 

[tiriaq]

Thirty years? Ha! Mine might be only a couple of years older than I am.
I lived in Iqaluit/Frobisher Bay for many years. US forces stationed there did quite a bit of shooting in a valley, and left everything lying on the ground. The Browning belts were rotten, the thousands of cartridge cases were oxidized, but the M-1 clips had light even rust, and most cleaned up very nicely indeed. I look at my stash and feel sorry for those who have to buy them at current prices.

 

[Jay]

Thirty years? Ha! Mine might be only a couple of years older than I am.
I lived in Iqaluit/Frobisher Bay for many years. US forces stationed there did quite a bit of shooting in a valley, and left everything lying on the ground. The Browning belts were rotten, the thousands of cartridge cases were oxidized, but the M-1 clips had light even rust, and most cleaned up very nicely indeed. I look at my stash and feel sorry for those who have to buy them at current prices.

I know, I know... I'm just a spring chicken at 50 BUT my M1 Garand is 80!!!

And, definitely jealous of your stash of M1 clips with their paternity!

 

[can14]

I remember when they used to sell the Canadian made m1 clips in a sealed barrel of 5000
They were sold as surplus in America in the 1990’s

 

[bearhunter]

Thirty years? Ha! Mine might be only a couple of years older than I am.

I lived in Iqaluit/Frobisher Bay for many years. US forces stationed there did quite a bit of shooting in a valley, and left everything lying on the ground. The Browning belts were rotten, the thousands of cartridge cases were oxidized, but the M-1 clips had light even rust, and most cleaned up very nicely indeed. I look at my stash and feel sorry for those who have to buy them at current prices.

I didn't have the same opportunities you had, but the area where I live in BC is only about 20K from the Vernon Base.

When I was a youngster, there were places that had been used for Field Training Exercises. We found hundreds of discarded chargers for Lee Enfields, as well as many more fired and ejected blank cartridge cases. We found all sorts of "junk" that were treasures to us as kids.

In some areas, there were a lot of unexploded munitions, especially mortars. Many civilians were killed picking this stuff up, sometimes just moving the pieces caused them to explode. I knew one fellow who had found a couple and was throwing them at rocks.

As for M1 Garands, mine is a Pietro-Breda made FKF, Typo 2, chambered in 7.62x51 Nato, with an Italian 56 date barrel and unissued stock.

This rifle has had the recoil/return spring replaced with a heavier Wolf spring and has digested at least a dozen different manufacturers' surplus ammunition.

The US Lake City Match and Hirtenberger are the hottest of all of them, with Canadian IVI being at the low end.

This rifle digests it all without any feed or extraction issues. I wasn't worried about the op rod or gas system as they were purpose-built for this ammo.

Of course, the sights have to be adjusted when shooting different lots, which is normal.

It shoots most surplus acceptably with a noticeable preference for the Lake City Match.

As for en blocs, I was extremely lucky about 35 years ago when and old REME who had been stationed on the Alaska Panhandle during WWII, gave me a several dozen en blocs. The unit he was with was issued Garands and Pattern 17 rifles because it was all supplied by the Americans, who shared the base with them.

They are definitely better than anything I've picked up after.

I gave many of them away, when I sold off the various M1 Garands I've owned over the past 50 years.

My first came from a mail order house in the US called "Klein's" It cost me a week of wages at the time, but it was worth every dime.

Afterwards, Lever Arms would bring them in. Alan didn't care for the Garands but he liked making money so he tried to keep a couple of hundred in the warehouse at any given time. That's all changed now.

I remember one particular batch of National Match M1 Garands he brought in and I had the job of cleaning them up. They had been stored for quite a while and most were well worn, but still safe to shoot. A few of them looked like they came straight from the armorer special build shop. I managed to get one of those.

I was also lucky enough to get a couple of cases of Match ammunition, which the rifle shot extremely well.

Sadly, that rifle went the way of the willow to help pay off my divorce. I miss that rifle a lot, the ex-wife, not so much.

 

[fingers284]

I watched hundreds if not a thousand of Garand's sell at Bud Haynes auctions over 25 or more years of not missing a sale for 3-$400 and never bought one....now I have decided that a Garand is the one remaining "bucket list" rifle I need and they're 2 grand or more now.

I've got a decent 86' cowboy rifle from 1888 to trade if anybody has a hankering for one on their "bucket list"

 

[beltfed]

There are some genuine Tipo2s, some parts together home builds that may be as good, or less than those proper arsenal refurbs and then there are still those "Tipo2"s that Marstar brought in a few years ago you should avoid like the plague.
From a collector standpoint there might be a handful of USN converted 7.62mm NATO rifles, but you are unlikely to run into one that the owner doesn't know what they have.

For 30-06, there are original (99.99% arsenal refurb.), and home built as above.

Unless you know what you are looking for, your first purchase should probably be Canfield's "The M1 Garand Rifle", or Jay's solution of importation of a CMP model is a solid choice.