Secondary recoil lug

[Potashminer]

I am currently playing to assemble a 416 Rem Mag rifle. In days past, I owned a factory Win Model 70 in 375 H&H that had a secondary recoil lug installed on the barrel - underneath, into the stock. My recollection not perfect, but I think that one was set into a slot cut on that barrel, then it was welded - I seem to recall that there was a weld bead visible - pretty sure if I tried that, I would warp or bend this barrel?

So, I am looking for thoughts or ideas how to install a secondary recoil lug? An acquaintance has suggested to install a recoil bar into the stock with epoxy - then there would be a slot cut into the barrel - sort of like a Tikka rifle that he owns. Another acquaintance has suggested to drill and tap into that barrel to fasten a recoil bar. Will a slot cut into the barrel significantly affect the "hoop strength" at that point?

As I understand the point of it - it is to be bearing solidly on the stock, along with the primary recoil lug on the action - to spread out the recoil impulse so as not to split the stock. Maybe I even have that all muddled up?

 

[9.3mauser]

My suggestion would be either to dovetail it, or cut a square notch and silver solder it on.

 

[Potashminer]

To do its job, how much of the barrel diameter would need to bear on that secondary recoil lug? Assume, at about that area, that the barrel outside diameter is circa 1.000" and there is a 0.416" (groove to grove) rifled hole in the middle.

 

[guntech]

As usual in asking questions more information is needed...

Make of action and what is the stock?

The vast majority of times a second lug is not required if the action is bedded correctly.

 

[Potashminer]

More information - the receiver is a P14 action that has had the rear sight ears ground off. The stock will probably be a Boyd's laminate stock that has been inletted for a P14 receiver, but has not yet had the barrel channel scraped out for this larger size barrel - I do intend to epoxy bed the receiver into the stock - and also epoxy bed a secondary recoil lug, if that gets installed.

How does one decide if a secondary recoil lug is needed? I notice that a Zastava LK M70 in 458 Win Mag, that I bought a few years ago, does not have one - it has a wood stock - I presume some sort of inferior walnut, I think.

 

[guntech]

If it were mine, I would install a "hidden cross bolt" behind the recoil lug, and make sure the stock is inletted so the action is not forced in... and glass bed the action. Forget about another recoil lug unless you really want to do one for the sake of doing it. A second lug on the barrel can be soft soldered on if it has a good area on the barrel and a good fit. Glass both lugs and the action at the same time with clearance on the fronts and sides of the lugs...

The "hidden cross bolt" I used to do involved milling a slot that would accept a couple of screws dropped in and glassed... heads to each side, one on top of the other as wide as you can do...

 

[Potashminer]

Thanks for your thoughts, gun tech - I have done "hidden cross bolts" in the past - I can recall a Swede Mauser getting one, for sure.

Reviewing old books here - 1930's, 1950's - as if some stock design concepts have changed - maybe expectations have as well - for example, I think it was pretty common to want a 3rd (4th?) action screw up through the forearm to the barrel - like I see on pre-64 Win Model 70 - I presume that was from days when 3" group at 100 yards was "good enough" - subsequent versions either become cheaper to make and / or "more accurate" to use.

As per various previous posts on CGN, I suspect there is a difference among a "target" rifle, a "hunting" rifle and a "fighting" rifle - I tend to get those all mixed up - when done up as all-out best for their purpose, they seem to be done very differently - different priorities - versus trying to make one thing to do "all" functions. I do own several name brand target type rifles - dated for sure - a Parker Hale 1200 TX and a Schultz and Larsen M70 - they deliver better on target than I can shoot. I also own a number of "hunting" rifles - various Winchester 94, Model 70, etc. and others. This one will be a "fighting" rifle - for when I need to stop a gravel truck (or similar) in its tracks at 50 paces - will not be for "long range" - nor for "precision" - just to deliver a tremendous wallop into 4" or 6" or so, at 50 yards. It typically will not be about "groups", but what can it do with a cold bore shot.

 

[guntech]

The .416 Remington Magnum will deliver a tremendous wallop... The 400 grain solids in an 8 pound rifle are brutal.

 

[DANS40X]

As guntech suggested/advised in regards to cross bolts.

I'd add pillars to the glass bed job & pass on the barrel lug.

Of the 2 Rem 700's in possession chambered in 416 Rem Mag.both do not have barrel lugs.

The Custom Shop Safari walnut stock rifle has the cross bolt in the stock w/ no barrel block.
The production synthetic stock w/ aluminum beddding block does not have a cross bolt or barrel lug.

 

[AP]

I think it was pretty common to want a 3rd (4th?) action screw up through the forearm to the barrel - like I see on pre-64 Win Model 70 - I presume that was from days when 3" group at 100 yards was "good enough"

the BRNO ZKK 602 and most 600 actions had a third screw that went through the forearm to engage a small sliding tab that slid inside a dovetail machined into the underside of the rear iron sight boss. Its purpose was apparently to moderate barrel ‘whip’ and it seems to work remarkably well based on the accuracy produced by these rifles. Incidentally the forearm of the stock was inletted to accommodate that ‘sight boss’ BUT I dont believe that any rearward recoil was transmitted to the stock at that point

I dont think any action screw (other than the oblique style employed by some ruger bolt actions) should be used to absorb the rearward recoil of an action as the small bearing surface they would present to an unreinforced wood stock would likely exacerbate the potential for splitting the stock.

The older pre-model 75 Sako’s sometimes employed a second crossbolt in the stock wrist area as reinforcement on some of their heavier recoiling calibres. Maybe the later models do as well IDK. But this wasnt done afaik to bear the recoil but rather to protect the stock from splitting due to the forces of recoil.

As for using pillar bedding (metal or glass) it has always been my understanding that they should not be installed so that the action screws bear against them - even under recoil — and that all recoil should be transmitted to the stock via a properly bedded flat lug …. Or other mechanical bond with the action. Just my 2cents.

 

[Lodi]

A-Square used a lot of the M1917's for their rifles, a search might reveal their methods for handling recoil.

 

[Potashminer]

The search is no where complete, but I am trying - from Wikipedia about A-Square heavy rifles: "The barrels on the rifles use epoxy resin to bed the barrel to the stocks." - I presume that means that they "glued" the barrels to the stock?? If so, that would sort of negate any purpose for, or serve as, a secondary recoil lug on the barrel?

I did that once on a Remington 788 in 243 Win - was epoxy bedded right from rear tang of receiver to front tip of the fore-arm - but I had release agent on the metal - so was not "stuck together" - was my attempt at "full contact" bedding, instead of "free-floating" the thing. Maybe in spite of my efforts, that was one of the more accurate rifles that I have used.

 

[Abonneau]

I am late but a couple of suggestions and I do not know what you have for equipment

In one of the gunsmith kinks a African gunsmith would machine a aluminium bedding block so that the action recoil lug would sit it a groove, He then glassed it in, He also had grooved under the block for the epoxy to lock into. The idea was to grab the wood ahead of the recoil just like a second recoil lug . Stainless might be better but would ,for better or worse, add weight. . I could go further and drill and tap directly the block for reinforcing screws.

New England Custom Gun used to supply a full barrel band with integral sight base. I have never actually seen one but I think they were about 2 1/4 inchs long so they had lots of solder area. With silver bearing solder i would think it would be amply strong. I would not view it a hard to make with a bit of time and a lathe.

 

[Potashminer]

Thanks for the suggestions - I like the idea of engaging to the stock in more than one place - I had not thought of that. And yes, with enough area, I suspect silver bearing solder would hold just fine, if I put one on this barrel. I was looking at that NECG rear sight band with integral recoil lug - was noodling how I could make something similar. Apparently the finishing reamer is a couple months out, so will not be a rush, before I can fire it.

 

[Twan]

Thanks for the suggestions - I like the idea of engaging to the stock in more than one place - I had not thought of that. And yes, with enough area, I suspect silver bearing solder would hold just fine, if I put one on this barrel. I was looking at that NECG rear sight band with integral recoil lug - was noodling how I could make something similar. Apparently the finishing reamer is a couple months out, so will not be a rush, before I can fire it.

Take a look @ Recknagel's catalog. 99% of the NECG stuff is actually Recknagel - including that recoil lug rear sight base.

 

[Kevin32]

Where do you get a .416 p14 barrel?

 

[Potashminer]

Where do you get a .416 p14 barrel?

From an acquaintance in Wainwright, Alta who picked it up at an Alberta gun show - he is under the impression it was a "gunsmith" school project that was never completed - maybe he got that impression from whomever he bought the thing from. Chambering is short. Extractor slot is now about perfect timed when the square threaded barrel is snugged up to either of the two P14 actions here. Is nothing done for sights at all - even the exterior tapering was not completed - is perhaps a few thousandths more than 1.2" ahead of the receiver - for about 6" (15 cm) - probably not much more than a threaded barrel tenon with an extractor slot on a .416 barrel blank. A new 300 Weatherby cartridge and a new 338 Win Mag seats all the way in, firmly on the belt seat in the chamber - which is short on this bolt as per the GO gauge that I used. New 375 H&H and new 416 Rem Mag brass will not chamber even close - as if their shoulder run into something. Whatever it is chambered for now, it uses a 375 H&H size belt, and appears to be 30-06 (338 Win Mag) length. I have not done a chamber cast.

I have a 416 Rem Mag finishing reamer on order for it. I have never cut those square profile threads - so was a "bonus" for me to come up with something that was threaded already - I think I took something like .025" off both the barrel shoulder and the rear end of barrel to get the extractor slot to line up with these raceways and some clearance to the bolt face - so I suspect whatever the original guy was working from or measuring from was different between these two receivers and his receiver and bolt.

So, in the end, I do not think it is or was a .416 barrel for a P14 - I think it was a rifled barrel blank in .416 diameter groove size, that was threaded and slotted to fit to a P14 receiver, and maybe one day will have a sporter contour and some finish on that barrel. I understand such would be pretty much "old hat" for a real gunsmith - which I am not.

 

[guntech]

Fire a couple of hot loads and you will find out how well the square threading was done. There was a fellow in the Victoria area who blew a barrel down range on the first shot...

 

[Potashminer]

Fire a couple of hot loads and you will find out how well the square threading was done. There was a fellow in the Victoria area who blew a barrel down range on the first shot...

Ha! I would not be looking forward to that happening - I suspect is in the class of recoil that I will be first trying to figure out which way is "UP", before I notice that the barrel is missing!!