Shooting 3F instead of 2F - need some advice

Muskyhunter1

Muskyhunter1

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I am kind of mad at myself - I went and picked up some 3F Pyrodex for my 45 cal Thompson Center (TC) Cherokee ML yesterday (shop 2 hours away - likely no returns on powder). Once I was home I checked the TC manual and it calls for 2F - great:(

If you check the hodgdon website (below) it appears I can used either 2F or 3F interchangeable. My old Lyman BP book has 3F loads in a 45 cal too. Given others past experiences if I work my loads up should I be ok?

How do you tell when pressure in BP ML is too high? Accuracy, sound, patch if you are using one........sorry don't know. I was planning on shooting Minnies.


http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf?CHECKBOX_1=on

Thanks in advance,

Dave
 
Both of those granulations will work in a .45, it seems to be the dividing line between them. I would simply start a little lower on charge, say 5 to 10 grains lower than you would start with 2F.
 
Gabriel is right. The 3f will pack a little more powder in due to it being smaller grains. If you are just target shooting, stick with your original charge. Most people I shoot with are only using 50 gr which is well below what the guns will take.

I shoot both from my 50's and see no real difference.

If you are hunting and max loading your gun then definitely reduce your charge 5-10 percent and go to the range to see if there is any difference.
 
In Sam Fadala's book "Black Powder Loading Manual" he tests a T/C .45 cal Hawken with both FFg and FFFg (Black Powder).

50 grs FFFg with a 128 gr round ball gives 1750 fps MV.

50 grs FFg with a 128 gr round ball gives 1547 fps MV.
 
Never had consistent ignition in side hammers with anything but real BP ,even with #11 magnum caps.H 777 was very unpleasant getting hangfires in a Renegade .54 with it's "soft hitting" steel butt plate! Harold...............never messed with musket caps
 
Lads I fired it yesterday and it shot amazing. Really pleased with it.

Mbogo3 you are right at times there was very obvious hang fires and i have @11 mag primers. Next time I will get real BP. I was shooting a 250 grain maxiball and i lubed it with crisco. Got this from the old Lyman BP book. Is there better lubes out there that are not as messy? I was planning on trying some minnies next.
 
If you use a Hotshot nipple on your rifle you will be able to keep the misfires at a minimum, but as was said, Pyrodex is very hard to ignite, ad I use only real FFFG in my guns les than .54 calibre.
Cat
 
You can buy bore butter.

A trick I use is create a loading block out of wood by cutting holes just the right size for your caliber. Then put the patch and ball in each hole. Then smear the lube over the patch, on the side of the block that will go in the gun first.

To keep it even cleaner, I use a small syringe with a plastic tip. I fill it with lube and just squirt out enough to lube my patches.

I also use lube patches that I buy prelubed. They are a great help in keeping the crud from building up in the bore.
 
U will be fine with 3f in a 45. I shoot 3f in my 50, no problemo. I have loaded up with as much as 100gr of 3f in my 50 cal T/C Hawken. Many shooters perfer 3f as they figure it burns cleaner in 50 caliber and less.
 
having been in black powder for years and have never heard of over loading or over pressure because black powder only will devolope 25,00psi and a TC can handle that no problem the differance using 3f compared to 2 F is it burns faster then 2 f so shot barreled guns like 3f better longer barrels like 2 f you need to play around with both to see how mush and and what f works best for your T/C Have fun and enjoy your self
 
black powder Bob said:
having been in black powder for years and have never heard of over loading or over pressure because black powder only will devolope 25,00psi and a TC can handle that no problem the differance using 3f compared to 2 F is it burns faster then 2 f so shot barreled guns like 3f better longer barrels like 2 f you need to play around with both to see how mush and and what f works best for your T/C Have fun and enjoy your self
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according to the complete black powder handbook 5th ed by Sam Fadala the "BP will only develop 25,000 psi" is complete bull. The us cavalry did tests in the late 1800s and got recorded laboratory pressures up to and over 100,000 psi...
 
gabrielguitars said:
For percussion guns, sometimes it will re-#### the hammer, due to excess gas coming back through the nipple. This is considered bad, by the way.
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I have 4 .45's (rifles). 3 caplock, one flinchlock. I use fffG almost exclusively, and have never had a problem. Nowadays, I never shoot over 70 gr. of it behind a 250 gr. Maxi, because over that, accuracy takes a dump.
 
Muskyhunter1 said:
Lads I fired it yesterday and it shot amazing. Really pleased with it.

Mbogo3 you are right at times there was very obvious hang fires and i have @11 mag primers. Next time I will get real BP. I was shooting a 250 grain maxiball and i lubed it with crisco. Got this from the old Lyman BP book. Is there better lubes out there that are not as messy? I was planning on trying some minnies next.
Click to expand...

Wonderlube is the best I have found. However, if you use it, make sure you use NO oil in your gun or loading chain. When I clean my guns, I swab them dry and run a patch of wonder lube through to lube and protect. It does seem to make it easier to clean the crud out - although with BP, there is no such thing as "easy cleaning".
 
black powder Bob said:
having been in black powder for years and have never heard of over loading or over pressure because black powder only will devolope 25,00psi and a TC can handle that no problem the differance using 3f compared to 2 F is it burns faster then 2 f so shot barreled guns like 3f better longer barrels like 2 f you need to play around with both to see how mush and and what f works best for your T/C Have fun and enjoy your self
Click to expand...
I've seen it first hand with coil mainspring sidelocks, but never with flat spring sidelocks, the TC included.
Cat
 
tbrwlf said:
The 3f will pack a little more powder in due to it being smaller grains..
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I am going to disagree with a couple of posts made in this thread. I strongly believe that 3F develops more pressure than 2F because the smaller particles result in a faster burn rate not because there is slightly more powder in the gun / measure. In my own gun, with a 50 grains charge and 54 caliber, 3F gave me roughly 100 fps faster than 2F. I also use 3Fl for everything up to and including 60 cal because I shoot mostly flintlocks and the smaller grains get farther into the vent liner.

I also disagree with blowing the hammer back as being a sign of excessive pressure. That is actually a sign that your nipple is worn out and by that I mean that gas cutting has gradually increased the diameter of the hole through the nipple or in the case of using an original nipple, that again it is worn out through gas erosion.

About the only way I can think of for guesstimating pressure is to compare your charge with the tables in Lyman's Black Powder Manual and make your own decision of how much pressure your own gun is safe with

cheers mooncoon
 
I agree totally with Mooncoon, based on my own experience. If you take the same volume of FFg and FFFg powder, you will find only a very small difference in weight of the two charges. Regarding pressures, I doubt it is possible to overload an octagon barrel with too much powder under normal loading procedures as any excess will be blown out the muzzle - only increasing smoke and muzzle flash. I use FFFg in everything up to and including 54 cal and would not hesitate to use it in my 62 cal trade gun if I found myself short of FFg. I regularly proof my new barrels, up to 54 cal with 200 gr FFFg and two patched balls with no evident ill effects.
 
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