Shooting the Italian Vetterli in 6mm carcano
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The Vetterli originally was loaded with Black Powder ammunition, a 313-grain brass-jacketed lead bullet at 1525 ft/sec for 1616 ft/lbs ME. You can duplicate this with 64 grains of powder according to TBSA - 1909. Rifling pitch was 1 turn in 26 inches. This is the 1887 loading; TBSA gives 62 grains (as does Barnes in COTW-6) and 200 ft/sec LESS MV for the original single-shot M-1870 loading. Neither book gives any indication as to pressures, but it was rare for the black-powder rounds to go a great deal above 15,000 unless the charge was compressed: the British got up over 45,000 psi with the black-powder .303" Mark I cartridge of 1888 and the rifles did not like it.
As altered by the 1915 pattern, it shot the 6.5x52MC cartridge, which was loaded with BALLISTITE, 30.9 grains with the 164-grain .266" Carcano bullet. Chamber pressure is listed at 17.1 ILT or (17.1 x 2240 =) 38,304 PSI.
Now we come to BOLT THRUST, which is the TOTAL resisting force required to contain the cartridge safely when it is fired. Calculating the base diameter of the original round as .540 and the pressure as 20,000 psi, we get (.270 x .270 x 3.14159 x 20,000 =) 4580 pounds. This is the actual LOAD on those twin rear locking lugs. Note that I have calculated pressure higher than one normally finds and I have ignored the RIM, which is solid with the case and serves to spread (and thus lessen per unit square measurement) the load somewhat. Taking the Carcano cartridge and doing the same calculations, we find the .445-diameter base exerts (.2225 x .2225 x 3.14159 x 38,304 =) 5957 pounds, or just about exactly 30% MORE thrust. And on a smaller AREA. Every round of factory Carcano ammunition would be like a Proof round to the old rifles!
But that is with factory rounds, loaded to the nuts, as people say.
I have a Carcano Model 38 Carbine which was MOST unpleasant to shoot. Every time I pulled the trigger, I got an ear-splitting CRASH and a 2-foot fireball at the muzzle. Ammunition was Western white-box milspec 1946 loaded with Ball powder. I started in handloading for the thing and decided that it wanted a faster powder...... something about the burn rate of Ballistite..... so I loaded with a 140-gain bullet and 28 grains of IMR-4198. Bullets were the Remington bulk-pack 140 flatbase because I also wanted some obturation, the proper Carcano bullet not yet being available here. This is not a heavy loading, but the Carbine started BEHAVING (for the first time in the 40 years I had owned it). No more fireball, no more split ear-drums..... and it suddenly became accurate, to boot.
I decided that I was onto a Good Thing, so I tried the same ammo in my shiny-new Model 41. Recoil was minimal and the thing started shooting 1-MOA groups. I had a genuine 1-MOA rifle on my hands...... that I paid $56 for. I am NOT complaining, not even one little bit.
Anyway, this is actually a fairly-mild loading. I have NO idea what the pressures might be, but I can guarantee that they are LOW. This is the loading which I am planning on using in my own two (now THREE!!!!!) Vetterli Conversions. It is my thinking that the bolt thrust should be low enough to make shooting these old rifles SAFE and FUN.
Anybody out there care to run these figures through a Powley Pressure Computer?
Hope this helps.
.
As altered by the 1915 pattern, it shot the 6.5x52MC cartridge, which was loaded with BALLISTITE, 30.9 grains with the 164-grain .266" Carcano bullet. Chamber pressure is listed at 17.1 ILT or (17.1 x 2240 =) 38,304 PSI.
Now we come to BOLT THRUST, which is the TOTAL resisting force required to contain the cartridge safely when it is fired. Calculating the base diameter of the original round as .540 and the pressure as 20,000 psi, we get (.270 x .270 x 3.14159 x 20,000 =) 4580 pounds. This is the actual LOAD on those twin rear locking lugs. Note that I have calculated pressure higher than one normally finds and I have ignored the RIM, which is solid with the case and serves to spread (and thus lessen per unit square measurement) the load somewhat. Taking the Carcano cartridge and doing the same calculations, we find the .445-diameter base exerts (.2225 x .2225 x 3.14159 x 38,304 =) 5957 pounds, or just about exactly 30% MORE thrust. And on a smaller AREA. Every round of factory Carcano ammunition would be like a Proof round to the old rifles!
But that is with factory rounds, loaded to the nuts, as people say.
I have a Carcano Model 38 Carbine which was MOST unpleasant to shoot. Every time I pulled the trigger, I got an ear-splitting CRASH and a 2-foot fireball at the muzzle. Ammunition was Western white-box milspec 1946 loaded with Ball powder. I started in handloading for the thing and decided that it wanted a faster powder...... something about the burn rate of Ballistite..... so I loaded with a 140-gain bullet and 28 grains of IMR-4198. Bullets were the Remington bulk-pack 140 flatbase because I also wanted some obturation, the proper Carcano bullet not yet being available here. This is not a heavy loading, but the Carbine started BEHAVING (for the first time in the 40 years I had owned it). No more fireball, no more split ear-drums..... and it suddenly became accurate, to boot.
I decided that I was onto a Good Thing, so I tried the same ammo in my shiny-new Model 41. Recoil was minimal and the thing started shooting 1-MOA groups. I had a genuine 1-MOA rifle on my hands...... that I paid $56 for. I am NOT complaining, not even one little bit.
Anyway, this is actually a fairly-mild loading. I have NO idea what the pressures might be, but I can guarantee that they are LOW. This is the loading which I am planning on using in my own two (now THREE!!!!!) Vetterli Conversions. It is my thinking that the bolt thrust should be low enough to make shooting these old rifles SAFE and FUN.
Anybody out there care to run these figures through a Powley Pressure Computer?
Hope this helps.
.
I shoot cast loaded to 28K psi or less in mine - you could do the same with jacketed. Factory is a no-no.
None of alleged "blow-ups" have been proven, it's just "Gun Folklore", but you still should not use factory ammo, or reloads except reduced loads.
None of alleged "blow-ups" have been proven, it's just "Gun Folklore", but you still should not use factory ammo, or reloads except reduced loads.
, what calibre of bullet do you feed your Carc ?....
I have been using those Remington 140 flatbase SP slugs that the bulk dealers have. They are .264" but they are also pretty soft; hit them on their arses with a fast powder and the tendency is to obturate before they start moving. It really helps that the bore in my '41 is very tight, as bores in '41s tend to be, for the most part.
I like Carcanos, really don't see anything "wrong" with them and was quite happy when The Big H started making the special slugs. GETTING the things was another matter and I have had them on order through one local dealer for the past 6 years and still haven't seen one. Fortunately, Anthony at Trade-Ex stocks them and ships them rightawayquick, which is part of the reason I recommend them for oddball stuff. So I now actually HAVE some and so several old Carcani (I hope that's right!) will be heading to the range later this Summer.
I have some of the Norwegian nickel-jacketed swelled-base .262-156 slugs and they are beautifully-made but disastrous in a Carcano, tumbling terribly.
I noticed with great interest the specifications for the ammo in the TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909, stating that the Italian military ammo used BALISTITE. This was a double-based powder, sort of a chopped 'ribbon Cordite' if you will, double-based and with the NG component rolled onto/into the surface of the NC ribbons. The stuff was a nuisance to make but it was very energetic and relatively fast. This property was what pointed me in the direction of the faster powders for my Carbine..... and then the same very fast powder worked brilliantly in my '41. Nice thing is that the load I am getting good results with is actually below the "start" load for any of the slower powders and under the Italian 30.09-grain Balistite loading...... and IMR-4198 is single-based and so nowhere nearly as energetic as original military ammo would be. Pressures seem to be nice and low, and that is right where I want them.
The RIFLES I will be loading for are THREE VV conversions. One long rifle is unmarked apart from normal factory things and it looks pretty decent. The other long rifle is an AOI which looks as if the entire Imperio Exercito Italiana retreated over top of the poor thing..... but this is the rifle which STARTED my collection, 50 years ago. I will take NO chances with this rifle; it lives in the vault with the unfired MH, the W&C Scott 11-bore cartridge double and the factory-special Winchester '73 and '92. And at the last Brandon Gun Show, Brian Bellemare sold me absolutely the PRETTIEST Vetterli I have ever laid eyes upon: an 1892 Short Rifle which was last rebuilt in 1938 and appears unfired since then. It is just too PRETTY to chance damaging..... so I am being as careful as I can, given the information which I have to work from.
Hope this helps somehow.
.
I like Carcanos, really don't see anything "wrong" with them and was quite happy when The Big H started making the special slugs. GETTING the things was another matter and I have had them on order through one local dealer for the past 6 years and still haven't seen one. Fortunately, Anthony at Trade-Ex stocks them and ships them rightawayquick, which is part of the reason I recommend them for oddball stuff. So I now actually HAVE some and so several old Carcani (I hope that's right!) will be heading to the range later this Summer.
I have some of the Norwegian nickel-jacketed swelled-base .262-156 slugs and they are beautifully-made but disastrous in a Carcano, tumbling terribly.
I noticed with great interest the specifications for the ammo in the TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909, stating that the Italian military ammo used BALISTITE. This was a double-based powder, sort of a chopped 'ribbon Cordite' if you will, double-based and with the NG component rolled onto/into the surface of the NC ribbons. The stuff was a nuisance to make but it was very energetic and relatively fast. This property was what pointed me in the direction of the faster powders for my Carbine..... and then the same very fast powder worked brilliantly in my '41. Nice thing is that the load I am getting good results with is actually below the "start" load for any of the slower powders and under the Italian 30.09-grain Balistite loading...... and IMR-4198 is single-based and so nowhere nearly as energetic as original military ammo would be. Pressures seem to be nice and low, and that is right where I want them.
The RIFLES I will be loading for are THREE VV conversions. One long rifle is unmarked apart from normal factory things and it looks pretty decent. The other long rifle is an AOI which looks as if the entire Imperio Exercito Italiana retreated over top of the poor thing..... but this is the rifle which STARTED my collection, 50 years ago. I will take NO chances with this rifle; it lives in the vault with the unfired MH, the W&C Scott 11-bore cartridge double and the factory-special Winchester '73 and '92. And at the last Brandon Gun Show, Brian Bellemare sold me absolutely the PRETTIEST Vetterli I have ever laid eyes upon: an 1892 Short Rifle which was last rebuilt in 1938 and appears unfired since then. It is just too PRETTY to chance damaging..... so I am being as careful as I can, given the information which I have to work from.
Hope this helps somehow.
.
just inspected mine the other night and found a chip between the lugs....I wont be fireing the ol girl till I get a new bolthandle/lugs collor for it. Numrich sells them for 69$ not sure if I can import that over the border...anyone ever order parts from them to Canada?
a curio I do beleave or antique....the original 10mm or 11mm version is antique down there as well as here, they didnt change the lugs or bolt handle in the conversion only the bolt face and the addition of a barral liner and mag so the original handle and lugs will work on this conversion model.
I believe that Springfield Sporters has the part at a reasonable price.
Being that it is a dedicated part fitting only a firearm which is both Antique AND Curio and Relic under US law and requires no IMPORT permit at this end, there MIGHT be a chance of getting one. Do you know anyone who has a Post Office box in the USA?
A few years ago there would have been no problems but everybody now knows that the Vetterli just MIGHT be the Weapon of Choice by some terrorist group which is completely wacked-out on qat or can't afford ammo for their Klacks. Really, this Heimats Sicherheitsdienst...... pardon me, I mean HOMELAND SECURITY, stuff just gets way out of hand.
Springfield HAS the part.
They just DO NOT ship to Canada any longer.
.
Being that it is a dedicated part fitting only a firearm which is both Antique AND Curio and Relic under US law and requires no IMPORT permit at this end, there MIGHT be a chance of getting one. Do you know anyone who has a Post Office box in the USA?
A few years ago there would have been no problems but everybody now knows that the Vetterli just MIGHT be the Weapon of Choice by some terrorist group which is completely wacked-out on qat or can't afford ammo for their Klacks. Really, this Heimats Sicherheitsdienst...... pardon me, I mean HOMELAND SECURITY, stuff just gets way out of hand.
Springfield HAS the part.
They just DO NOT ship to Canada any longer.
.
