Shooting the Lee Enfield No. 4 for Accuracy

[Ganderite]

I have never been satisfied with the performance of my Lee Enfield rifles. The only exception was one of those new Irish contract rifles, which shot about a minute… but I sold it.

I am trying to find a decent load for these two - a real #4T (got it new, never issued) and my #4PT (Pretend T, or Pseudo T). It has a medium weight Winchester 308 caliber barrel, chambered with a 303 reamer. I call it a 308Brit.

In theory, the #4PT should shoot best. A quality heavier barrel. I like it because I have lots of 308 bullets on hand.

In the past the results have been disappointing. A good #4 should shoot 2.4 MOA or better. 2.5 was ok for the Military, but I would prefer 1.5.

I made up a survey in 1 gr increments with 150 gr bullets (with 4895) and 180 gr bullets with RL-15. 308 bullets for the #4PT and .311 bullets for the #4T.

The challenge with the #4T is the 3X scope. I made targets with 3” black squares to aim at. This worked well. The #4PT has a cheap 3-9 BSA scope, and it is a pleasure to shoot at 1” black patches. I aim at the corner of the patch.

To properly clean a rifle, you need to remove the bolt. With a #4T, this means removing the scope, because you have to stand the rear sight up so the bolt will come out. I did this, but was concerned about losing the zero.

The first shot was very high right. Each successive shot in the 5 shot group went lower and to the left. The last shot was about zero.

The smaller group was typical of the #4T. If it will do this constantly, I will be very happy.

No idea what was settling down, but it was fine after that.

It has been my experience with Lee Enfields that a flat base bullet will usually shoot better than a boat-tail. This seemed true in this test. I shot 175MKs in the #4PT and 174MK in the #4 and in both cases a 180 gr flat base hunting bullet shot better. Here are two groups shot in the #4PT with the same powder charge. Boat tail match bullet not as good.

Here are two groups shot with the #4T with the same powder charge. As usual, the flat base did better.

The survey was made with thrown powder charges. I see some promising groups and will load more ammo, with weighed charges in 0.5 gr increments. I hope to have a reliable load for each rifle.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

If I remember right Ganderite, you wear glasses. How do you compensate for varying cheek position and therefore changing optical centre in the shooting eye lens?

 

[Ganderite]

If I remember right Ganderite, you wear glasses. How do you compensate for varying cheek position and therefore changing optical center in the shooting eye lens?

Yes, I do wear glasses. back in the day when I took shooting seriously, I had a pair of shooting glasses that shifted the right lens up and to the left, so that it was aligned with my aim and I was looking through the optical center of the lens.

These days I just wear my ordinary glasses and take what I get.

 

[enefgee]

Have you tried the Hornady 174 flat based soft point?, also, next time you have the scope off, remove the rear sight from the 4T, so the scope can stay put after that. If you want to get really serious, you'll need to mess with the bedding.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/303-cal-312-174-gr-interlock-rn#!/

 

[jamesharrison]

Back in the day I owned a .30-303; still own a bunch of "normal" .303 Lee Speeds.

Although you would not think so, my standard 42.0 gr. load of RL15 in the .303's, which were fine with either 180 Sierra SPT, 174 Hornady RNSP or 180 gr. Westerns, was way too warm for a 180 bullet in the .30-303.

I couldn't figure out why, given the quite small difference in bore size, but running the numbers in QL shows 49,179 psi in Herter's brass with 53.8 grs. H2O capacity for the .303, but 54,683 psi in the .30-303 using 0.308" 180 gr. Sierra SPT in the same lot of Herter's cases, albeit necked to .308, which resulted in almost a full grain decrease in water capacity.

Perhaps a #4 wouldn't notice, but that 1942 made Aussie S.M.L.E. sure did. It bounced a lot higher off the bags than a .303 with a 42.0 gr. charge of RL15. Groups were +5.00". When I dropped the charge back to 39.5 grs., it started behaving nicely and gave me some VERY respectable groups.

Maybe your charge is just too hot for the .30-303.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

If I remember right Ganderite, you wear glasses. How do you compensate for varying cheek position and therefore changing optical centre in the shooting eye lens?

With a bit of marksmanship and practice, its not that difficult to maintain pretty consistent cheek weld on the stock, which minimizes parallax shift.

Have you tried the Hornady 174 flat based soft point?, also, next time you have the scope off, remove the rear sight from the 4T, so the scope can stay put after that. If you want to get really serious, you'll need to mess with the bedding.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/303-cal-312-174-gr-interlock-rn#!/

I tried some Hornady 174gr FMJ-BT, which shot OK. However as soon as I switched to 150gr bullets, it seemed easier to put rounds on more distant targets. Like the velocity seemed to make the thing more consistent.

I had the bedding on my MK2 done. It was expensive but worthwhile I think.

I removed the OEM rear sight and replaced it with a two-position fixed sight, which I machined off the 600 yd blade so the sight can stay down and let the bolt be removed while the scope is installed.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I have never been satisfied with the performance of my Lee Enfield rifles. The only exception was one of those new Irish contract rifles, which shot about a minute… but I sold it.

The challenge with the #4T is the 3X scope. I made targets with 3” black squares to aim at.

The 3.5x No32 scope will never be as easy to use as a modern optic. I find that it really challenges my marksmanship skills ... which is one of the things that make it interesting to shoot. In comparison, a modern rifle and optic is just easy.

The No4 rifle is an 80+ year old hard use military rifle, based upon a ca 130 year old design that uses a similarly aged cartridge case. It is simply never going to match modern rifles and ammunition. While we can apply modern loading techniques to the old 303, it is important to accept the rifle and ammunition for their limitations.

 

[Ganderite]

Back in the day I owned a .30-303; still own a bunch of "normal" .303 Lee Speeds.

Although you would not think so, my standard 42.0 gr. load of RL15 in the .303's, which were fine with either 180 Sierra SPT, 174 Hornady RNSP or 180 gr. Westerns, was way too warm for a 180 bullet in the .30-303.

I couldn't figure out why, given the quite small difference in bore size, but running the numbers in QL shows 49,179 psi in Herter's brass with 53.8 grs. H2O capacity for the .303, but 54,683 psi in the .30-303 using 0.308" 180 gr. Sierra SPT in the same lot of Herter's cases, albeit necked to .308, which resulted in almost a full grain decrease in water capacity.

Perhaps a #4 wouldn't notice, but that 1942 made Aussie S.M.L.E. sure did. It bounced a lot higher off the bags than a .303 with a 42.0 gr. charge of RL15. Groups were +5.00". When I dropped the charge back to 39.5 grs., it started behaving nicely and gave me some VERY respectable groups.

Maybe your charge is just too hot for the .30-303.

That does not make sense to me. A .308 180 in the 308 barrel and a .311 bullet in the 303 should give similar pressures, assuming similar bullet jumps to the rifling.

 

[apu]

I have never been satisfied with the performance of my Lee Enfield rifles. The only exception was one of those new Irish contract rifles, which shot about a minute… but I sold it.

Funny you should say that because I have an Irish contract rifle with a Parker Hale aperture sight that was accurized by a previous owner. I picked it up several years ago from the Calgary gun show with an unknown history. It shoots pretty close to a minute with period correct surplus ammo. When I have mentioned this to folks they all laughed at me with incredulity that Enfields are not nearly capable let alone with surplus ammo. I feel better knowing I am not completely nuts

 

[jethunter]

I have never been satisfied with the performance of my Lee Enfield rifles. The only exception was one of those new Irish contract rifles, which shot about a minute… but I sold it.

I am trying to find a decent load for these two - a real #4T (got it new, never issued) and my #4PT (Pretend T, or Pseudo T). It has a medium weight Winchester 308 caliber barrel, chambered with a 303 reamer. I call it a 308Brit.

In theory, the #4PT should shoot best. A quality heavier barrel. I like it because I have lots of 308 bullets on hand.

In the past the results have been disappointing. A good #4 should shoot 2.4 MOA or better. 2.5 was ok for the Military, but I would prefer 1.5.

I made up a survey in 1 gr increments with 150 gr bullets (with 4895) and 180 gr bullets with RL-15. 308 bullets for the #4PT and .311 bullets for the #4T.

The challenge with the #4T is the 3X scope. I made targets with 3” black squares to aim at. This worked well. The #4PT has a cheap 3-9 BSA scope, and it is a pleasure to shoot at 1” black patches. I aim at the corner of the patch.

To properly clean a rifle, you need to remove the bolt. With a #4T, this means removing the scope, because you have to stand the rear sight up so the bolt will come out. I did this, but was concerned about losing the zero.

The first shot was very high right. Each successive shot in the 5 shot group went lower and to the left. The last shot was about zero.

The smaller group was typical of the #4T. If it will do this constantly, I will be very happy.

No idea what was settling down, but it was fine after that.

It has been my experience with Lee Enfields that a flat base bullet will usually shoot better than a boat-tail. This seemed true in this test. I shot 175MKs in the #4PT and 174MK in the #4 and in both cases a 180 gr flat base hunting bullet shot better. Here are two groups shot in the #4PT with the same powder charge. Boat tail match bullet not as good.

Here are two groups shot with the #4T with the same powder charge. As usual, the flat base did better.

The survey was made with thrown powder charges. I see some promising groups and will load more ammo, with weighed charges in 0.5 gr increments. I hope to have a reliable load for each rifle.

In the .303, try imr3031 powder with flat base jacketed bullets in the 180gr - 200gr range. I can get a starting load if you need it. That powder has been the most accurate in several LE I've had.

 

[Butcherbill]

Funny you should say that because I have an Irish contract rifle with a Parker Hale aperture sight that was accurized by a previous owner. I picked it up several years ago from the Calgary gun show with an unknown history. It shoots pretty close to a minute with period correct surplus ammo. When I have mentioned this to folks they all laughed at me with incredulity that Enfields are not nearly capable let alone with surplus ammo. I feel better knowing I am not completely nuts

I have a ‘43 LB No.4 sporter that shoots 1”-1.25” five shot groups at 100m with Fed blue box 180gr sp’s if I do my part, there definitely are some out there that shoot pretty nicely. Mine shoots 174gr ppu fmj’s about the same, 2 grove barrel. I wish it was still in full wood but it is what it is.

 

[enefgee]

They are capable of decent accuracy, remember Grand Dad used to shoot them to 1000 yards with iron sights, but not without particular and specific bedding. There are some videos and a book on the subject here:

https://www.youtube.com/@EnfieldAccurizing

If the rifle has seen a diet consisting largely of corrosive ammo, it will benefit from flat based bullets driven slightly slower than spec for ball ammo.

 

[Ganderite]

They are capable of decent accuracy, remember Grand Dad used to shoot them to 1000 yards with iron sights, but not without particular and specific bedding. There are some videos and a book on the subject here:

https://www.youtube.com/@EnfieldAccurizing

If the rifle has seen a diet consisting largely of corrosive ammo, it will benefit from flat based bullets driven slightly slower than spec for ball ammo.

Ya, I know. When I started competitive shooting, it was with a 303 Lee Enfield. We shot back to 1000 yards.

 

[bearhunter]

Ganderite, if you can find some 312 diameter bullets with exposed lead bases, both of those rifles should settle down nicely.

I was pulling a bunch of 7.62x54R bullets to get the exposed lead base bullets for my 303 and they measure .3105 inches.

They shoot very well in my rifles, including the 98 Mauser converted sporter I picked up last summer.

For those that don't know, the exposed lead base is pushed hard into the jacket by the pressures generated during the ignition of the powder and burn. This causes the jackets to obturate fully into the contours of the bore in a final swaging before exiting the muzzle. Accuracy may not be in the tack driver league but it kept most of the rifles well within the acceptable limits of their specs.

 

[TheWhole9Yards]

Ganderite, if you can find some 312 diameter bullets with exposed lead bases, both of those rifles should settle down nicely.

I was pulling a bunch of 7.62x54R bullets to get the exposed lead base bullets for my 303 and they measure .3105 inches.

They shoot very well in my rifles, including the 98 Mauser converted sporter I picked up last summer.

For those that don't know, the exposed lead base is pushed hard into the jacket by the pressures generated during the ignition of the powder and burn. This causes the jackets to obturate fully into the contours of the bore in a final swaging before exiting the muzzle. Accuracy may not be in the tack driver league but it kept most of the rifles well within the acceptable limits of their specs.

I've found the same results shooting pulled czech 54r rounds in my 2 groove Savage N04MK1. They shoot as well as the 150gr flat based Sierra game kings I can no longer find. Bonus is being able to use the powder from the 54r as well. I've just received a scope rail for my rifle and hope to do more testing with various loads in the future, lots of great info in this thread already.

 

[tiriaq]

No. 4 accuracy is much affected by bedding, which is more complicated than with, say, a Remington 700. Even if the receiver and the muzzle end of the barrel are perfectly set up, the fore and aft bedding areas are separated by almost a couple of feet of wood. A change in humidity can cause the forend to move slightly, affecting the bedding. Center bedding can reduce this, the receiver and barrel bedding separation being reduced to a foot or so.

 

[Jay]

I have never been satisfied with the performance of my Lee Enfield rifles.

So what do the experts say about LE accuracy?

Skennerton, Lee Enfield Story (1993ed.), p212:

“Accuracy tests for the No. 4 sniper rifle involved placing 7 out of 7 shots within a 5 inch diameter at 200 yards & 6 out of 7 shots into a 10 inch diameter at 400yards.”

From: https://www.leeenfieldresource.com/accuracy-2

 

[bearhunter]

No. 4 accuracy is much affected by bedding, which is more complicated than with, say, a Remington 700. Even if the receiver and the muzzle end of the barrel are perfectly set up, the fore and aft bedding areas are separated by almost a couple of feet of wood. A change in humidity can cause the forend to move slightly, affecting the bedding. Center bedding can reduce this, the receiver and barrel bedding separation being reduced to a foot or so.

This is very true. Another issue many two piece stock Lee Enfields have, which relates directly to bedding are missing "king screw spacers"

My post about the exposed lead base bullets was made assuming everything else was good.

 

[tiriaq]

Lee Enfields are quirky rifles.
James Sweet was a leading Australian competitor. I remember in one of his books he was discussing SMLE competition rifles. He felt if one would hold 3 minutes, it was a good one.

 

[Ganderite]

Lee Enfields are quirky rifles.
James Sweet was a leading Australian competitor. I remember in one of his books he was discussing SMLE competition rifles. He felt if one would hold 3 minutes, it was a good one.

That is probably close to reality.

I think I have loads that will reliably group under 2" in both rifles. I will test that ammo this weekend. If so, I will be satisfied.

One of our Sporting Rifle matches involves shooting 30 shots from the standing position at 100 yards. I don't see any point on using nice (expensive) hunting bullets when standing. I have a few thousand pulled 7.62xr4R bullets (.310). I will test those and maybe they will be ok for standing.