Short barrel- heavy or light bullet?
- Thread starter propliner
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Purple shoulder
Regular
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- Winnipeg MB
Comment retracted. Sorry.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Choose the bullet based on the job you intend it to do with it; any comparison with the same load from a 30" barrel has no bearing on your choice. For deer sized game 125-140 gr bullets are typically chosen, while 140-160 gr bullets are better for elk and bear. Its unlikely you would use a 16" carbine for long range shooting, but if the rate of twist supports a 155 gr match or VLD, those provide the best long range performance, even if their muzzle velocity is somewhat mundane. Additionally, the load that produces the highest velocity with any given bullet from a long barrel, also produces the highest velocity in a short barrel, with that same bullet.
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This makes sense but would a faster burning powder be more efficient in a shorter barrel? Since the bullet spends less time in a short barrel would we not want to get the powder burned and the bullet up to speed quicker?
And maybe a heavier bullet with the fastest burning powder it can handle pressure-wise would be the ticket since the slower acceleration would give the bullet more time in the barrel and thus more powder burn time.
I'm talking mainly about efficiency and am not too concerned about the bullet weight. I assume that a slow powder would have have more muzzle blast and wasted energy regardless.
If by "To get the most out of this length" you mean achieve highest MV, then Boomer answered your question. If your question pertained to light vs. heavy bullet, he answered that as well. What didn't you like about his answer?
"The load that produces the highest velocity with any given bullet from a long barrel, also produces the highest velocity in a short barrel, with that same bullet." This is a fact, proven repeatedly over the years, but many continue to disagree.
If the concern is muzzle blast (means noise and/or flash to most people), well you've chosen a 16.5" barrel, so I can see why it's a concern. To minimize it you need to minimize muzzle pressure (reduce noise), which will reduce your MV, and choose a powder known for its flash suppressant qualities (flash).
If you want to save a few grains of powder (increase "efficiency") then you'll ether crank up pressure or lower your MV.
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I didn't say I didn't like his answer, and it has plenty of merit.
I'm referring to a bullet's acceleration. If a bullet can be accelerated to 2500fps in 16" using a fast powder vs being accelerated to 2500fps in 26" using a slow powder, would using a fast powder in a 16" barrel not be more efficient?
PL.........what Boomer said is absolutely true, however I helped a young guy with a Ruger compact in 7-08 that he bought for his girlfriend with the 16 1/2" barrel. He is a handloader and tried all the best loads for 7-08 in the manuals and could not get any kind of reasonable accuracy from this gun. He was trying all the slowest powders that gave the best velocities in the manuals for the 7-08 and having no luck at all finding a node in that short barrel. He asked me why, so I explained about nodes and long vs short barrels and told him to try powders in the 3031/748 burn rate to shorten the time frame to peak pressure and get a more consistent burn in the short barrel.
He came back a couple weeks later with a target showing a 4 shot group right around 1 1/4" he had shot at 100 mtrs. He had shot several groups that morning all around the same size and was grinning ear to ear. He didn't have a chronograph and wasn't overly concerned about the velocity (obviously buying a 16 1/2" barreled rifle), he was more concerned that the rifle would at least hit a soccer ball sized target at 100 mtrs. I believe he was trying bullets all around the 140 gn weight and said he was quite surprised how flat they shot out to 385 mtrs (turkeys on the silhouette range) even from this short barrel.
Point being PL that although you will attain the best velocities with the same loads regardless of barrel length, you may not be able to produce a consistent node with the slower powders in a short barrel and thus get any sort of acceptable accuracy.
I just kinda asked the same question as I bought a 20" barreled 375 H&H and asked the guys here what loads they were using for lighter bullets in their short barreled 375s. I have never worked with anything lighter than 270 gns in my 375s and consider 285 gns to be about optimal for it. However with this rifle I think I want to try some loads in the 235-260 gn range just 'cause I do.
He came back a couple weeks later with a target showing a 4 shot group right around 1 1/4" he had shot at 100 mtrs. He had shot several groups that morning all around the same size and was grinning ear to ear. He didn't have a chronograph and wasn't overly concerned about the velocity (obviously buying a 16 1/2" barreled rifle), he was more concerned that the rifle would at least hit a soccer ball sized target at 100 mtrs. I believe he was trying bullets all around the 140 gn weight and said he was quite surprised how flat they shot out to 385 mtrs (turkeys on the silhouette range) even from this short barrel.
Point being PL that although you will attain the best velocities with the same loads regardless of barrel length, you may not be able to produce a consistent node with the slower powders in a short barrel and thus get any sort of acceptable accuracy.
I just kinda asked the same question as I bought a 20" barreled 375 H&H and asked the guys here what loads they were using for lighter bullets in their short barreled 375s. I have never worked with anything lighter than 270 gns in my 375s and consider 285 gns to be about optimal for it. However with this rifle I think I want to try some loads in the 235-260 gn range just 'cause I do.
Yes, in order to reach peak of pressure before the bullet left the barrel, physics would dictate that you'd need a faster powder to achieve this in a shorter barrel.
A heavier bullet would be slower to accelerate and would help achieve this peak based on extra time in the barrel rather than burn rate. It's why heavier bullets need slower powder, particularly in longer barrels.
So in a shorter barrel you can make the peak occur in a shorter distance by using a heavier bullet, faster powder, or both.
A heavier bullet would be slower to accelerate and would help achieve this peak based on extra time in the barrel rather than burn rate. It's why heavier bullets need slower powder, particularly in longer barrels.
So in a shorter barrel you can make the peak occur in a shorter distance by using a heavier bullet, faster powder, or both.
Peak pressure is reached in the first few inches of travel and is dropping after that. Slower burning powders hold high pressure a little farther down the pipe is all.
The easy path is to listen to Boomer.
Most studies that I have read show that most (80%+) of the powder is burned in the first 2-3 inches of barrel where peak pressure is achieved. While some of the residual powder is burned after this, it doesn't contribute materially to bullet velocity.
If you are concerned about higher velocity, a lighter bullet and faster powder might get you a better result simply because a lighter bullet will accelerate more quickly at max. rated pressures. You will need relatively faster powders to achieve max. pressures with lighter bullets since they moving sooner than heavier bullets.
A shorter barrel generally results in lower velocities not due to the issue of un-burnt powder, but due to the fact that the bullet is being accelerated by pressure for a shorter period of time.
PL.......you are seriously trying to overthink this situation. Use the top velocity loads in the manuals and if you cannot get any reasonable accuracy then try some of the faster powder loads. Pick the bullet weight you want to use from several manufacturers and fly at 'er. It will be what it will be..............Muzzle blast is going to be significant regardless of which powder you use.
Propliner, If you look around in Places that allow a suppressor, you will find quite a bit more info, and load data on short barrel rifles,
We call them a "bush pig" rifle in New Zealand, 14-18" plus suppressor,
I have a finlight 7-08, that is going in for a chop to 17" once I get back to NZ on the 25 Feb.
Here is a copy and paste, from Greg Duley, a gunsmith in New Zealand.
Here's a bit more info for anyone considering a Bushpig, whether one of our originals, or a copy from someone else. As some have said above, we cut the barrel to 16 inches which brings the can back to just off the forend on a T3 or a Remington. On a Kimber we cut them to 15.25 inches to keep the can in the same place. We fit custom threaded cans made for us by HRE or Gunworks, depending on whether the customer wants the longer skinnier look, or the shorter fatter look. We then flute the barrel and the bolt to remove as much weight as we're adding with the can. We then also add our safety half co*k system (should have patented that!) which locks the bolt in the half co*k position so it can't be knocked open or closed. The end result is a bush rifle that weighs less than the original and is the same overall length as a 20 inch barreled carbine.
If someone wants maximum weight reduction we fit either one of our NZH pattern carbon fibre stocks made by McMillan, or one of our very own made right here in little old NZ STUG stocks.
We also matte black anodise the T3 alloy rings, which look so much better than the silver shiny ones, or we use Talley 7000 series or Optiloks if you'd rather.
We've been making them in 338, 308, 7mm-08, 260 and 243. The most popular are in 308 and 7mm-08, but the 260 isn't far behind. The go-to bullets in the 308 are the 110gn TTSX at a comfortable 3150fps or the 130gn TTSX at 2950fps. The new 125gn AB also works great as 2T3s said above and can be pushed a little faster than the 130gn TTSX. Our usual powder choice is H335, but with the right combination of high capacity brass and CFE223 powder, you can get up to another 100fps on these velocities if you're prepared to work with compressed loads. The best goat or varmint bullet is the 125gn Nosler Ballistic Tip at about or over 3000fps depending on powder choice.
In the 7mm-08 the go-tos are the 120gn TTSX at 2950fps for big game and the 120gn Nosler Ballistic Tip for varmints, goats or smaller deer. CFE223 or 2208 are our powders of choice here.
In the 260 the bullets are the 100gn TTSX for big game and the 95gn V-Max for varmints, both at around 3050fps. Again, CFE223 or 2208 are the powders we use.
In the 243 its the 80gn GMX and the 75gn V-Max, and in the 338 Federal its the 165gn TTSX. We haven't done a varmint load in the 338 yet, hasn't really been the call for it!
Anyway, that gives you most of the info. We have new Bushpigs in 7mm-08 and 308 here all ready to go if anyone wants one right now. We can provide one in any calibre with about a week or so's notice. If you already have the rifle and want us to turn it into a Bushpig, or want prices for complete Bushpigs or have any questions at all, just email me at editor@nzhunter.co.nz and we can talk you through the options.
Greg
NZH T3 Bushpig
We call them a "bush pig" rifle in New Zealand, 14-18" plus suppressor,
I have a finlight 7-08, that is going in for a chop to 17" once I get back to NZ on the 25 Feb.
Here is a copy and paste, from Greg Duley, a gunsmith in New Zealand.
Here's a bit more info for anyone considering a Bushpig, whether one of our originals, or a copy from someone else. As some have said above, we cut the barrel to 16 inches which brings the can back to just off the forend on a T3 or a Remington. On a Kimber we cut them to 15.25 inches to keep the can in the same place. We fit custom threaded cans made for us by HRE or Gunworks, depending on whether the customer wants the longer skinnier look, or the shorter fatter look. We then flute the barrel and the bolt to remove as much weight as we're adding with the can. We then also add our safety half co*k system (should have patented that!) which locks the bolt in the half co*k position so it can't be knocked open or closed. The end result is a bush rifle that weighs less than the original and is the same overall length as a 20 inch barreled carbine.
If someone wants maximum weight reduction we fit either one of our NZH pattern carbon fibre stocks made by McMillan, or one of our very own made right here in little old NZ STUG stocks.
We also matte black anodise the T3 alloy rings, which look so much better than the silver shiny ones, or we use Talley 7000 series or Optiloks if you'd rather.
We've been making them in 338, 308, 7mm-08, 260 and 243. The most popular are in 308 and 7mm-08, but the 260 isn't far behind. The go-to bullets in the 308 are the 110gn TTSX at a comfortable 3150fps or the 130gn TTSX at 2950fps. The new 125gn AB also works great as 2T3s said above and can be pushed a little faster than the 130gn TTSX. Our usual powder choice is H335, but with the right combination of high capacity brass and CFE223 powder, you can get up to another 100fps on these velocities if you're prepared to work with compressed loads. The best goat or varmint bullet is the 125gn Nosler Ballistic Tip at about or over 3000fps depending on powder choice.
In the 7mm-08 the go-tos are the 120gn TTSX at 2950fps for big game and the 120gn Nosler Ballistic Tip for varmints, goats or smaller deer. CFE223 or 2208 are our powders of choice here.
In the 260 the bullets are the 100gn TTSX for big game and the 95gn V-Max for varmints, both at around 3050fps. Again, CFE223 or 2208 are the powders we use.
In the 243 its the 80gn GMX and the 75gn V-Max, and in the 338 Federal its the 165gn TTSX. We haven't done a varmint load in the 338 yet, hasn't really been the call for it!
Anyway, that gives you most of the info. We have new Bushpigs in 7mm-08 and 308 here all ready to go if anyone wants one right now. We can provide one in any calibre with about a week or so's notice. If you already have the rifle and want us to turn it into a Bushpig, or want prices for complete Bushpigs or have any questions at all, just email me at editor@nzhunter.co.nz and we can talk you through the options.
Greg
NZH T3 Bushpig
What distances you shooting out to? You said heavy timber, wolf rig? So if not long distance you might be overthinking velocity drop...
I've never managed to get closer than 300 Ish to a wolf. But southern BC Interior, they're still not very brazen or habituated to us. But when I was riggin it in alta, saw two mean lookin ones about 50m off the road in the Cash Creek area.
I've never managed to get closer than 300 Ish to a wolf. But southern BC Interior, they're still not very brazen or habituated to us. But when I was riggin it in alta, saw two mean lookin ones about 50m off the road in the Cash Creek area.
Now here's some real info, thanks. It beats the "just listen to this guy because he's always right" rhetoric. If that's how I thought I would have voted for Trudeau. Sometimes people want to know some details.
Knowing that most of the powder is burned in the first few inches and reaches peak pressure quickly helps a lot in understanding how powders behave.
I'm not worried about velocity drop so much as trying to figure out if a short barrel has a preference for powders or even bullets. That being said, between the three main stands I have, the longest shot is 350 yards down an old bermed logging road and most of the other shots are between 50 and 225. I also walk game trails between areas in thick brush.
I used to hunt coyotes there with a .204 but lately I've heard a large pack of wolves and see more of their tracks, though I haven't laid eyes on one yet. If I ever recover from a torn hip flexor I'll dig out the snowshoes. Until then, I'll just continue to overthink things.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Propliner, you need to choose a bullet that's appropriate for your intended purpose, but the rifle's purpose has yet not been defined. If the point of the exercise is to simply seek out the load with the highest velocity, or the one with the flattest trajectory, get a selection of bullets, work up loads with 3031, 4350, and 4831 or other powders with similar burn rates, then shoot them across a chronograph, or measure their drop at 300 yards to see which has the flattest trajectory. If light for caliber bullets are your preference, monos might be the ticket since they are longer than lead core bullets of equal weight, so their BCs are better. I'd honestly be interested in what what you discover.
