Shot Size Question?

Giarc

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Hey guys, I have been shooting for 12 years, mostly 5.56mm and 9mm.
Shot my first shotgun and was hooked!
I just bought my first shotgun, a Mossberg 500 pump. As you all know, it takes 2 3/4" and 3" shells. My question is, if the 3" give you more shot, more range and more muzzle velocity why would anyone ever shoot 2 3/4"?
Is it just a recoil thing?
I know the 3" shot has somthing like 37 ft/lbs and 2 3/4" shot has 24 ft/lbs. But is that the only reason people love the 2 3/4 shells? Recoil?
 
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My question is, if the 3" give you more shot, more range and more muzzle velocity why would anyone ever shoot 2 3/4"?
Is it just a recoil thing?

Giarc, first off the 3 inch 12 gauge shell does not give you more velocity than a 2 3/4 inch one. Pressure limits for shotshells ensure that they are all about the same velocity. Steel shot can be pushed faster than lead, but comparing load for load they are all about equal. Even the .410 has the same velocities as 12 gauge. Check the on line reloading data tables from the various powder manufacturers and see for yourself.

Waterfowl hunting requires the use of non - toxic shot. The least expensive no tox load is steel shot. Steel is much less dense than lead, and requires more space to hold an equal weight of shot. In other words, 1 1/4 oz. of lead takes up less volume than 1 1/4 oz. of steel. For this reason the 3 inch shell is popular among waterfowlers, the steel loads for big geese just won't fit in a 2 3/4 inch shell.

For virtually all other purposes (upland game, clay targets of all descriptions, etc.) the 2 3/4 inch shell with lead shot is more than sufficient and is less expensive than a 3 inch shell. Shooting a ruffed grouse with a big 3 inch shell doesn't leave you a lot to eat. Many (most?) clay target ranges require the use of #7 1/2 shot or smaller, 1 1/8th oz. or less. You will not find a 3 inch shell with those specifications.

The effective range of a shotshell firing pellets (as opposed to a slug) is limited by pattern density more than any other factor. Number 6 lead shot is still going fast enough to kill birds at 80 yards, but the pattern is so spread out at that range that a hit is not guaranteed, even if your aim was correct. The pattern is a function of the barrels and choke as much as it is a function of the load. A 3 inch shell will give you better range than a 2 3/4 inch one only in so far as it gives you more pellets to fill in the pattern at a distance. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the 3 inch shell has longer shot strings and does not pattern as well (as a rule of thumb) as the 2 3/4 inch shells do. In other words the effective range of the 3 inch and 2 3/4 inch shells are very similar, especially with lead shot. With larger size steel shot, the 3 inch shell has an advantage simply because you can't put enough of it into a 2 3/4 inch shell. In fact, the 3 inch was considered insufficient by some, so the 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge load was developed, and given a higher service pressure load to drive the pellets to the same velocity as the shorter shells.

3 inch slugs carry more energy than the shorter variety. A 2 3/4 inch Brenneke will kill any big game on this continent though, and the increased energy of the big shell is often considered unnecessary.

Felt recoil is simply a function of gun weight vs. load. If the recoil is uncomfortable, get a heavier gun. For many people, shotgun shooting involves a lot of walking, and a heavier gun is undesirable. A light weight gun wants a lighter load to maintain a comfortable level of recoil. The 2 3/4 inch shells can be had in very light loads if so desired.

So, for reasons of cost, versatility and effectiveness the 2 3/4 inch shell remains very popular and will continue to be so for a while yet. For those that need non toxic shot the 3 inch and to a lesser extent the 3 1/2 inch shells fill the need. As you can see it is not just a case of recoil or cost or effectiveness. It is that the various loads are developed for various purposes and the length of the shell varies with the need. With a rifle, you choose various calibres. With the 12 gauge shotgun, you choose various loads.

Just my $0.02


Sharptail
 
That is an amazing explanation. :) One of the best posts I've read in a while.

Thank you Sharptail.
 
For me....
Use 3" for turkey.
Use 2 and 3/4" for deer (sabots). Less chance of jamming, if second or third shot needed.
Use 2 and 3/4" #4 for general purpose. (rabbits etc).
 
Giarc, first off the 3 inch 12 gauge shell does not give you more velocity than a 2 3/4 inch one. Pressure limits for shotshells ensure that they are all about the same velocity. Steel shot can be pushed faster than lead, but comparing load for load they are all about equal.


Ummm...kind of but not really. You can handload 2 3/4" shells to some pretty high velocities but in the vast majority of cases with factory ammo (I'm sure there is some obscure exception) you won't see 2 3/4" shells topping 1,400fps. You see 3" shells routinely topping 1,500 fps. As a rule, 3" shells do offer more velocity than similar 2 3/4" loads in factory ammo. 2 3/4" shells come nowhere close to producing maximum Sammi pressures and the 12 gauge is the one guage that has seen Sammi pressure ratings increased. This happened when 3.5" shells hit the market and it put the the 3.5" 12 gauge right in the performance arena of the 10 gauge.

3 inch shell has longer shot strings and does not pattern as well (as a rule of thumb) as the 2 3/4 inch shells do

Again, kind of but not really. Shot strings with steel shot are considerably shorter than they are with lead and within practical steel range, the minimal difference in shot string length between a 2 3/4" shell and a 3" really has no bearing on their pattern.
 
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... you won't see 2 3/4" shells topping 1,400fps. You see 3" shells routinely topping 1,500 fps. As a rule, 3" shells do offer more velocity than similar 2 3/4" loads in factory ammo.

I concede the point, but these are all steel shot loads and there is little commercial demand for the 2 3/4 inch steel shot load at 1500 fps. Since the SAAMI pressure for the 2 3/4 and 3 inch loads are the same, it would be easy for the manufacturers to load the shorter shell to the same velocity - easier actually, as the smaller shell would hold less shot.

2 3/4" shells come nowhere close to producing maximum Sammi pressures and the 12 gauge is the one guage that has seen Sammi pressure ratings increased. This happened when 3.5" shells hit the market and it put the the 3.5" 12 gauge right in the performance arena of the 10 gauge.

2 3/4" & 3" shells have a lower service pressure than the "new" 3 1/2 inch shell. The service pressure of the older loads has not changed. In addition, you certainly can find 2 3/4 inch shells that push the SAAMI limit. Most keep the pressure at 10,000 psi or less though, I'll give you that.

Shot strings with steel shot are considerably shorter than they are with lead and within practical steel range, the minimal difference in shot string length between a 2 3/4" shell and a 3" really has no bearing on their killing ability.

Agreed, shot stringing is shorter with steel than lead. This does not significantly affect both their effective ranges, which was my point.

In all, I agree with what you have written, but it is going to be difficult to include all the exceptions and minutiae regarding within the confines of this discussion.


Sharptail
 
Sharptail - very well explained, as usual.

Giarc - Welcome!

As far as the 2 3/4 inch shells are concerned, you will find that size more than adequate for both field and range use. The main exception being Waterfowl and ONLY due to a requirement for non-toxic loads today - at this time, steel continues to be the most economical alternative available so far. Turkey, as well, could be easily taken with a 2 3/4.

It may certainly not be out of place to mention that prior to the advent of non-tox loads the 2 3/4 lead shells have been effectively used globally for decades for both Wingshooting and Clay. In fact, should the opportunity present and you are able to get your hands on even some 2 1/2inch loads (read low pressure shells such as that offered by Kent Gamebore) - you'd be surprised at how well those work in bowling over Pheasants and other Upland birds out to 40 yds. I never attempted further :) Note - the smaller length shells will likely not cycle in the pump though.
 
Ummm...kind of but not really. You can handload 2 3/4" shells to some pretty high velocities but in the vast majority of cases with factory ammo (I'm sure there is some obscure exception) you won't see 2 3/4" shells topping 1,400fps. You see 3" shells routinely topping 1,500 fps. As a rule, 3" shells do offer more velocity than similar 2 3/4" loads in factory ammo. 2 3/4" shells come nowhere close to producing maximum Sammi pressures and the 12 gauge is the one guage that has seen Sammi pressure ratings increased. This happened when 3.5" shells hit the market and it put the the 3.5" 12 gauge right in the performance arena of the 10 gauge.



Again, kind of but not really. Shot strings with steel shot are considerably shorter than they are with lead and within practical steel range, the minimal difference in shot string length between a 2 3/4" shell and a 3" really has no bearing on their pattern.

Sheephunter, you made some minor points, but for the most part you seemed to be picking fly s**t out of pepper while wearing boxing gloves:D
 
Sheephunter, you made some minor points, but for the most part you seemed to be picking fly s**t out of pepper while wearing boxing gloves:D

What are you, like 12 years old Covey?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You just had the honour of making my ignore list!
 
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What are you, like 12 years old Covey?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You just had the honour of making my ignore list!

"Covey" is actually ok... Sometimes! :) And I think all the 12 year old are on the "Dominion Arms Outlaw" thread's. I got caught up in those threads myself... It was like driving by a car accident, "over and over again". Something compels you to slow down and take a look. One for "Covey". How many ignore lists are you on now? :)
 
I use a 20 gauge with 2 3/4" ammo at times and it runs over 1400PFS with steel #4's .
I don't think I would recommend it just anybody for sh0oting ducks and geese, but it works very well for some people.
I have no problem keeping up with a 12 or even a 10 if the geese are coming within my decoys prrimeters.
Cat
 
The 3 inch does give you a few more pellets, not more range, but greater recoil. 2 3/4 loads are cheaper, kick less and are all you need for decooying ducks and pass shooting at reasonable ranges.
 
The 3 inch does give you a few more pellets, not more range, but greater recoil. 2 3/4 loads are cheaper, kick less and are all you need for decooying ducks and pass shooting at reasonable ranges.

The added pellets and extra velocity of the 3" do give you more range, especially with steel, as does the 3.5", after all, that's what they were designed to do but you are correct that for decoying birds the 2 3/4 is usually more than adequate. The 2 3/4" shell definitely has its place but so too do the the 3" and 3.5" shells. All comes down to application........
 
One for "Covey". How many ignore lists are you on now? :)

I am not sure how many ignor lists I am on:D Sheepshooter is O.K. but he sure must have gone over Sharptail's post with a fine tooth comb to find fault:D I don't see the point of the ignor list? I like to read them all including the really stupid ones. I would hate to live in a world where everyone agreed with me:D
 
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