Shotfall Distance

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cosmic

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Our skeet/trap range in Ontario has been shutdown while an investigation into shotfall is done by the CFO. We're under the 300 y limit ( its an old range). In the past, we've negotiated to use #9 shot, however, we seem to have lost this privilege.
Anybody been through this recently? Is it possible to prove by analysis or empirical study that we are not depositing lead on the neighbors property?
 
There are many clubs that have been through this stupid exercise.

The CFO is exceeding their authority by applying "Guidelines" as being requirements.

According to Journee's formula #71/2 travels 209 yards. # 9 travels about 165. We did empirical tests, but the CFO doesn't listen because they really don't know what they are talking about.

From a firearms act standpoint, as long as no projectile leaves the property, you are legal, but they don't really seem to care.

If you check the range guidelines from Australia, you will see that their book has exactly the same diagram in it as the RCMP range guidelines, but the number for shotfall distance is 200 metres, not 300.

We satisfied the CFO by building a 10 metre berm across the length of our property line. Shot does not travel in a perfect curve. As it loses velocity, it falls quickly to the ground, so the higher the berm, the less distance you need. We took almost a year to build it. We got all the fill free and had every spoonful tested to ensure it wasn't contaminated.

There are thousands of building projects going on right now looking for places to dump clean fill.

We have a study done by one of our members who is a professor emeritus from Ryerson University showing that the higher the angle, the shorter the distance.

We sent it to the CFO, but no one in their office could understand it, so they ignored it.

This is an issue that the NFA and CSSA should be taking on because an individual club can't win. If they go to court and show empirically that the CFO is all wet, the CFO will get that club somewhere else.......like insisting on red range rule signs instead of black, although red fades long before black does.
 
In the RSO course that I attended, the instructor maintained that shot could travel over 400 yards. I thought that seemed excessive, but he insisted that was the case??
 
dunki said:
In the RSO course that I attended, the instructor maintained that shot could travel over 400 yards. I thought that seemed excessive, but he insisted that was the case??
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It depends on the size of the shot which is why most clay shooting grounds have shot size limitations. Larger shot retains energy longer and goes further. Smaller target shot will fall within ranges shorter than the 300 yard minimum. However, 300 yards is what the CFO templates specify and what they require to approve a range.
 
Should it not be up to the CFO's office to prove that you ARE depositing lead on the neighbours property?

Why do you have to prove that you aren't??

Guilty before proven innocent anyone?? Is this how the CFO's office operates?


cosmic said:
Our skeet/trap range in Ontario has been shutdown while an investigation into shotfall is done by the CFO. We're under the 300 y limit ( its an old range). In the past, we've negotiated to use #9 shot, however, we seem to have lost this privilege.
Anybody been through this recently? Is it possible to prove by analysis or empirical study that we are not depositing lead on the neighbors property?
Click to expand...
 
Well - Its not quite like that. In the absence of drag, the optimal angle is 45 degrees, with 30/60, 20/70 giving lesser but equal distances. Adding air drag tends to drop the longest shotfall angle to something like 30 degrees. We're going to give it a go, just to see for ourselves.
 
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Another case of a CFO making an arbitrary ruling based on personal opinion with no fact behind it. Its the way bureaucracy works. Someone saw 300 somewhere in the world and decided we should have the toughest rules in the world so we try and go one step farther. If you check the national RCMP guidelines, Appendix D, template S2 has a trap safety area radius of 208m for #7-1/2 shot and 183m for #9. Template S1 is for skeet with a safety area of 241m for #7-1/2 and 212m for #9. Sporting clays on the other hand requires a radius of up to 300 m depending on the target presentation. So as dumb as it is, if you throw a target off your trap machine as part of a sporting clays course, you need a 300m safety area but if you call the same target trap, it is only 208m. To show you how little CFO's know about shotgun ballistics, since the Guidelines do not specify the range for #8 shot, there are some ranges which are not approved for #8 shot!!!! Also some ranges are not approved for steel shot even though they are ballistically inferior to lead shot in terms of shotfall distance even though the muzzle velocity might be a bit higher. You figure!!!! These guys generally do not know what they are talking about and err on the side of stupid.

One of the previous provincial range guidelines used Journee's formula; ie 209 yards for #7-1/2 and 176 yards for #9 which made some sense but this was thrown out when the Federal guidelines were developed. I have not checked ATA/NRA recently but I believe ATA uses 208 yards. We did a bit of testing on our own and could only get about 200 yds with #7-1/2.

As to a range of 400m, Journee says you can get there with #1 buckshot but certainly nothing used for bird hunting.
 
It would appear that the original post states that they were limited to using #9 shot. I have yet to shoot at a trap/skeet club that allows anything larger than #7 1/2 shot. So in this case the 300 yard limit would be overkill.
 
condomboy said:
but what if you're shooting at clays during a storm where there is 200km/h wind at your back... it might travel 301 yards..
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No it won't. Wind only affects sideways drift. At 88 ft per second for a 60 mile and hour wind, it's insignificant against 1200 ft per second. A tail wing really does little to affect distance.
 
Doug The Canuck said:
No it won't. Wind only affects sideways drift. At 88 ft per second for a 60 mile and hour wind, it's insignificant against 1200 ft per second. A tail wing really does little to affect distance.
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But the 1200 fps only exists at the muzzle. Velocity drops off rapidly and over the total path of flight and if you have ever watched shot fall on a body of water it seems to take forever for it to come down. Probably something like 2 seconds or more in which case the 60 mph wind would add at least 60 yds to the flight path. It appears the "excuse" for the 300m shotfall distance in the Range Design Guidelines is to account for wind.
 
I wish I could find the article now, but one shotgun magazine I had a few years ago did a study of shot fall distances. I can't remember all the data, but at whatever the optimum launch angle was, the furthest distance they could get shot to travel was 267 yards (I believe that was the number). That was with #6 shot fired at 1250 fps with a 50 mph tailwind. 7 1/2 shot, which is the maximum allowed by most clubs, wasn't anywhere near that far. It sucks that the CFO's office use random distances way over actual shot fall distances, as their baseline for enforcement.
Our club, has a very small "zone" where according to the CFO's guidelines, shot could far onto a neighbors property. Luckily we have a great neighbor who gives written permission to accept the "zone". I would stand in that zone all day long, during a trap shoot, and I could be darn sure shot would never land near me.
 
A few comments about shotfall distances and how to solve some issues with the CFO.
-Keep in mind that not every trap and skeet field is shooting on level ground. Thus, if you are standing on a ridge, shooting into a valley, etc. the shot will travel further. Just like when you are golfing, the ball does travel further if the landing area is below your feet. Add a tail wind and it goes further. The 300 M shotfall safety zone is not only for safety, but also for the distances to your neighbors property.
-One method to retain the shot within your property is to install shot screen curtains. The Windsor Sportsmen's Club has approx over 200 yards of these curtains that we raise up to about 40' and then lower them when the shooting is over. It is a pain, it takes time, maintenance, etc. but we are in the middle of the city now and we have been shooting trap and skeet since 1948.
-Another thought to consider is the angle of the shot pattern. Lots of trap clay target throwers also throw wobble trap. Sometimes the shooter gets onto the target quickly, and sometimes later , thus effecting the angle of the shotstring.
Elevation also affects the distance the shot will travel. Here's an example; St. Johns, NB 45' above sea level, Toronto 331 feet, Winnipeg 780 feet, Saskatoon 1544 feet, Calgary 3453 feet and Banff is over 4,800 feet (almost a mile). Do you think the shot travels further in St. Johns or Banff.
-Can you imagine the confusion if the CFO tried to apply a different set of rules and distances for every club? The 300 M zone is realistic and logical. It's not just because someone thought a even number would be easy to remember.
-The theoretical shotfalll zone for a trap field is approx 4 acres and a skeet field is approx 14 acres.
Just my two cents.
 
salter said:
But the 1200 fps only exists at the muzzle. Velocity drops off rapidly and over the total path of flight and if you have ever watched shot fall on a body of water it seems to take forever for it to come down. Probably something like 2 seconds or more in which case the 60 mph wind would add at least 60 yds to the flight path. It appears the "excuse" for the 300m shotfall distance in the Range Design Guidelines is to account for wind.
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I can attest to the fact that a tail wind certainly can and will effect shot fall distance. At an Oilmens shoot this year, there was a very strong West wind. The course we were on is an oval shooting into the middle (approx 275m E-W and 550m N-S). Because of the wind, on the east side of the course, shot from the west side was falling onto the stands on the east side; I've shot that course many times before and after and it was a unique experience.
 
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