Shotgun Legality Questions

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ilikeoldguns

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Got two for you.

I saw a shotgun posted for sale a while back, offered as a 3-gun setup; very nice; long extended tube as per; but semi-auto. It was a Browning A5. Now I was sure that a semi auto shotgun was limited to a 5-round magazine; no more. However, when I asked a learned friend; he told me that a shotgun or either kind could have as many rounds as you liked. Now I understand we do 3-gun shoots in Canada; from what I know of those a high-mag cap shotgun is needed. Is there a sporting exception? It was being sold as NR.

Now my dream shotgun would be a rhodesian-style A-5 (full-length handguard, 8ish-shot magazine). But to my knowledge the working 5+ magazine would make it prohib, no?

Next Question

Got a damaged shotgun barrel;

Stevens 520.
Stolen.
Crackheads.
Got it back.
Much rejoicing.
Big old gouge in the side of the barrel.
And guess where they did it? If you guessed almost exactly 17.5" you would be correct.
Been looking for a replacement, but...

So here is what I know; if *I* or some other *yahoo* chops a barrel below 18.5; thats a no-go. You can BUY a shorter barrel and gun; but you cannot cut it down below 26" OA and must be a factory barrel. Obviously that will not be happening here. So my second question, in multiple parts:

a. Can I get a *GUNSMITH* to finish what those scumbags started? It's a repair, afterall, right?

b. What if I or an expert *ADDED* a muzzle device to the end of the barrel bringing it to 18.5" or more?


Thank you for your time.
 
Your semi is limited to 5 rds in the tube of whatever size the gun is meant for 5 3" rounds in a 3" gun or 5 2 3/4 " rounds in an older 2 3/4 gun. BUT, you can put as many 2 3/4 rounds as you can get in the tube on a 3" gun (that would usually be 6) What the gun is chambered for is the important part. Even a gunsmith can't cut your barrel below the magical 18" for a pump or 18.5 inches for a semi
 
Lets unpack this:

First firearm classification (NR/R/P) doesn't affect legal magazine capacity beyond the differences between handgun and rifle/shotgun. I always reiterate this point as people think Restricted firearms have capacity limits and/or Non-restricted firearms have no capacity limits. Link to regulations (ctrl+f: Cartridge magazine)

To more specifically answer your question a semi-auto centerfire shotgun tube magazine may contain up to 5 rounds of what it is marked for, I believe a 5 round 3.5" shotgun tube magazine can hold 6-7 of the smaller 2.75" shotgun shells. To head off your question, you can not extend a 2.75" shotgun tube magazine to hold more than 5 rounds of 2.75".

a. Gunsmiths cannot create prohibited firearms unless they are licensed to do so. Opinion: I do not think most gun smiths will cut a barrel to be less than 18" even if it is a "repair" because as far as I know it will be a prohibited firearm and that's a no-go.

b. Muzzle devices don't count towards barrel length. I don't know the exact definitions/rulings that lead up to it, but it used to be popular back in the day to extend 18" M1 carbine barrels with soldered/welded on muzzle devices to meet NR length but the CFP put a kibosh to that eventually. It basically has to be 1 solid continuous barrel to measure barrel length.
 
I’m surprised they gave it back to you if they New it was below 18.5 they would have sent it to the crusher you can not add any metal to make it legal . Also if you get got with this gun in your possession by some unfortunate happening you could be charged
 
Okay, so...whoever was selling a "Race Gun" semi in canada; it was either a fake/plugged tube or they were stupid and they made a prohib and were trying to sell it as an NR.

Aaaaand the only thing I can do with my 520 is keep looking for another barrel. Damn. Man, how I hate thieves and crackheads.

I can't imagine any welding job will fix this gouge.
 
ilikeoldguns said:
Okay, so...whoever was selling a "Race Gun" semi in canada; it was either a fake/plugged tube or they were stupid and they made a prohib and were trying to sell it as an NR.

Aaaaand the only thing I can do with my 520 is keep looking for another barrel. Damn. Man, how I hate thieves and crackheads.

I can't imagine any welding job will fix this gouge.
Click to expand...

The firearms classification does not change when you alter the magazine. The individual was still selling an NR firearm, it just happened to have a prohibited device attached to it. If you attach a suppressor to a firearm, the firearm does not change classification, you’ve just attached a prohibited device.
 
chillyrabbit said:
Lets unpack this:

b. Muzzle devices don't count towards barrel length. I don't know the exact definitions/rulings that lead up to it, but it used to be popular back in the day to extend 18" M1 carbine barrels with soldered/welded on muzzle devices to meet NR length but the CFP put a kibosh to that eventually. It basically has to be 1 solid continuous barrel to measure barrel length.
Click to expand...

The criminal code does not tell us what does or doesn't count as a barrel, but it does provide instructions on how to measure one.

(2) For the purposes of this Part, the length of a barrel of a firearm is:
...
(b) ... the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to and including the chamber,
but does not include the length of any component, part or accessory including any component, part or accessory designed or intended to suppress the muzzle flash or reduce recoil.
Click to expand...

The general practice seems to be that integrated or permanently attached via welding etc accessories count towards barrel length, removable ones do not.

Niklasky said:
Can you install a magazine extension designed for a pump action gun on a semi-automatic or is that illegal/impossible ?
Click to expand...

I'm sure there is a magazine extension out there that fits both pump and semi magazine tubes. Putting the extension on isn't illegal per se, but you would still need to plug it in order to ensure you are limited to max 5 rounds of the type that the firearm is designed for. Not that any of the methods for plugging shotguns meet the legal requirements for pinning a magazine anyways.
 
Niklasky said:
Can you install a magazine extension designed for a pump action gun on a semi-automatic or is that illegal/impossible ?
Click to expand...

As long as it’s plugged to 5 of the longest cartridge the gun can chamber, then you’re okay. A magazine extension is just that, an extension. It’s a modification to the existing magazine, because on most shotguns the magazine is not removable. The “happens to fit” is irrelevant because it’s not actually a magazine on its own.
 
Blastattack said:
As long as it’s plugged to 5 of the longest cartridge the gun can chamber, then you’re okay. A magazine extension is just that, an extension. It’s a modification to the existing magazine, because on most shotguns the magazine is not removable. The “happens to fit” is irrelevant because it’s not actually a magazine on its own.
Click to expand...

The reason I was questioning the legality of the mag extension is because it reminds me of the LAR pistol mags which legally extend the capacity of the AR-15 rifle to 10 rounds.

Same thing with semi-automatic pistol caliber carbines and their 10 round pistol mags.

If the mag extension tube is designed to function on a pump action gun and happens to fit a semi-automatic shotgun, why wouldn't it be legal to use ? You are not modifying the tube mag, just attaching an accessory which was designed for another gun.
 
I suspect it's legally considered more like modifying the firearm itself since the magazine is actually attached to the firearm rather than being a separate removable piece that fits into it. As such, a semi-auto shotgun with tube mag can only take 5 rounds of the length of shell specified on the firearm. (Plus one in the chamber, and maybe one ghost loaded.)
 
Cbf123 said:
I suspect it's legally considered more like modifying the firearm itself since the magazine is actually attached to the firearm rather than being a separate removable piece that fits into it. As such, a semi-auto shotgun with tube mag can only take 5 rounds of the length of shell specified on the firearm. (Plus one in the chamber, and maybe one ghost loaded.)
Click to expand...

So you're saying that a magazine fed semi-automatic shotgun could legally use a 10+ round detachable magazine that was designed for a pump shotgun, but not a tube extension.
 
Niklasky said:
The reason I was questioning the legality of the mag extension is because it reminds me of the LAR pistol mags which legally extend the capacity of the AR-15 rifle to 10 rounds.

Same thing with semi-automatic pistol caliber carbines and their 10 round pistol mags.

If the mag extension tube is designed to function on a pump action gun and happens to fit a semi-automatic shotgun, why wouldn't it be legal to use ? You are not modifying the tube mag, just attaching an accessory which was designed for another gun.
Click to expand...

The magazine is the whole assembly. Unless the whole magazine itself is a removeable assembly designed for a pump shotgun, a judge is not going to agree with your position.

A semi auto gun whose magazine is modified with parts from a pump such that the magazine capacity is achieved by using the integral semi auto shotgun magazine and other pieces will simply be determined to be a semi auto shotgun with an unlawfully excessive magazine capacity.
 
Niklasky said:
The reason I was questioning the legality of the mag extension is because it reminds me of the LAR pistol mags which legally extend the capacity of the AR-15 rifle to 10 rounds.

Same thing with semi-automatic pistol caliber carbines and their 10 round pistol mags.

If the mag extension tube is designed to function on a pump action gun and happens to fit a semi-automatic shotgun, why wouldn't it be legal to use ? You are not modifying the tube mag, just attaching an accessory which was designed for another gun.
Click to expand...

A LAR15 pistol magazine does not legally extend the capacity of an AR15 Rifle. A LAR15 pistol magazine is a pistol magazine and therefore is allowed to hold no more than 10 rounds of the cartridge for which it was designed. It is detachable and can be used in any firearm that will accept it.

Firearms to do have a maximum capacity restriction. Magazines do.

Screwing an extension onto a semi-auto shotgun is little different than drilling the pin out of a 5-round rifle magazine in the eyes of the law.

Niklasky said:
So you're saying that a magazine fed semi-automatic shotgun could legally use a 10+ round detachable magazine that was designed for a pump shotgun, but not a tube extension.
Click to expand...

Yes. The magazine was designed and manufactured for use in a manual action firearm, therefore it does not have a capacity limit. It does not matter what the gun happens to fit into.
 
Tube extensions are generic, not specifically made for either pump or semi's and since it's just a straight pipe so labelling it for one or the other isn't likely to fly.
 
Cameron SS said:
The criminal code does not tell us what does or doesn't count as a barrel, but it does provide instructions on how to measure one.



The general practice seems to be that integrated or permanently attached via welding etc accessories count towards barrel length, removable ones do not. .
Click to expand...

The general practice is that they do not count. The SFSS or whoever came up with the interpretation that a barrel needs to be continuous so welded on extensions of any sort don’t count... otherwise I think we’d see a lot of 12(6) guns reclassified by way of compensators and a large interest in 17.1 barrels with welded muzzle devices.

I think they’re wrong and have simply taken the most restrictive interpretation possible because they hate the idea of handguns and semi autos in our dirty unwashed plebe hands... bit it’s still the current interpretation.
 
Muzzle devices count when you are talking overall length but not when it comes to barrel length unless it's permanent
 
dogzilla said:
Muzzle devices count when you are talking overall length but not when it comes to barrel length unless it's permanent
Click to expand...

Muzzle devices never count towards barrel length, ever. Unless the muzzle brake or flash-hider are machined into the barrel material, they do not count. Welding, pinning and other methods of permanency do not permit a barrel to be longer.
 
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