Shotgun shoots high, how high?

[SJB]

There is a lot of discussion of preferences of how high a shotgun shoots, 50/50, 60 /40 and everyone seems to have their own preferences for the type of shooting they are using the shotgun for. I often hear discussions of guns that shoot high and generally the recommended cure is a LOP adjustment or comb adjustment to compensate, which relates to how you shoot the gun not how the gun shoots. Since shotgun shooting is quite instinctive many shooters can compensate quite easily for different guns POI. I like to know where POI is for any shotgun I use so generally I use a pattern board to figure it out and then develop a sight picture from that information. Lately I have encounter a few high shooting shotguns and wanted to figure out the theoretical POI for them to see if it compared to the pattern board.
The proper sighting plane with only a bead sight is eye aligned with the top of the rib to the top of the bead. I measured in decimal inches, the distance from the center of the barrel to the top of the rear most point on the rib, then I measured the distance from the center of the muzzle to the top of the bead. I subtracted the numbers to get the difference, then multiply by 36 and divide by the length of the barrel. This gives me the amount of rise per yard. Multiply this by the number of yards, generally 40, and you have the theoretical amount the POI increases.
I have done the calculations on a know flat shooting Remington 1100 and the numbers agree. I have a particularly high shooting Browning BPS and found that the POI increases in theory to 15'' at 40 yards (100/0) and have found with patterning that is very close. I have tried the same measurements on OU shotguns with very comparable results.
To get a high shooting gun to shoot parallel I raise the front bead, it works well for me. From there I can concentrate on gun fit.

 

[stubblejumper]

My trap gun shoots from 60/40 to 70/30 which works well for trap. but my skeet/sporting clays and field guns shoot right around 50/50. If these guns don't shoot 50/50, or close to it, I either adjust the stock to make them shoot around 50/50 for me, or I get rid of the gun. I do not try to compensate for a gun that doesn't fit properly by aiming high or low, and I don't even notice the beads when shooting, so raising the front bead would serve no purpose for me. In fact if you are concentrating that much on the front bead to notice the difference in height from raising it, your wing shooting will suffer as a result.

 

[beretta boy]

I'm on board with what stubblejumper has indicated.

I pattern all my shotguns for both Point of Aim initially (i.e. "benchrest with an ideal sight picture) to determine that they are shooting "straight" in the first place) but more specifically Point of Impact patterning (normal mount & shoot) to determine if they are "shooting where I'm looking ". I do this with a tight choke at 16 yards from the muzzle, and average out the POI over at least 5 shots, preferably 10 on individual pattern sheets. A 1/16" change in the height of comb will generally yield a 1" change in POI. I wind up modifying the stock of almost every shotgun I own.

First up is a Pachmayr Decelerator pad ... not so much for recoil reduction, but more for adherence... to keep it from moving around on my shoulder when I mount it. Keeps it from sliding around when stood up on the floor of a duck blind or on a gun rack too. I would really like to have leather-covered pads on all my shotguns, however cost is a limiting factor. I prefer, after much shooting and patterning, "0" pitch, instead of the pitch down most guns are manufactured with. I've found about a 1/4" of cast-off suits me, with an additional 1/8" cast off at the toe. Drop at comb can vary a little from gun to gun, but usually it's a little higher than most field, skeet & sporting guns come from the factory with. For me, my ideal LOP is 14-1/4" with summer or early fall shooting clothing. My duck gun is about 3/8" shorter. If I can't get those sort of dimensions, it's either a custom stock or the gun goes. I refuse to compensate. POI gun fit and balance to me is almost everything in a shotgun, be it pump, autoloader, O/U or SxS. I can manage 26" barrels on a pump or auto-loader, but prefer 28". For Target guns, 30" on O/U's SxS's, and prefer 32". 34" on a Single Barrel Trap. For upland SxS doubles either 28" or 30", and double triggers please. with a "straight" rather than pistol grip stock and "splinter" forend.
For upland shooting, overall gun weight also becomes a factor. 7 pounds or a little under for 12 gauge, 6-1/2 for a 20. The old British "rule of thumb" for 96 x the shot charge weight yields a gun that's pretty light ... and difficult to come by at a reasonable price ... and recoil is noticeable even with light loads. For target guns, 120 x the shot charge is about right. I don't mind waterfowl guns up around 9 lbs. .... they swing very smoothly if balance right ... and invariably, they are not carried, other than to the blind or pits.

For Trap guns, I like a 60-40 or slightly higher pattern percentage. For ISSF Trap, Skeet, Sporting & 5-Stand, 50-50 seems best for me. For a dedicated SxS for upland field work, 55/45 seems advantageous.

Fussy, you bet, but after nearly 1/2 a century of shooting and something in the order of 50+ shotguns I've gone through, I know wht I like and what works for me.
Obviously, your mileage may vary, and what fits me may be miserable for you !

 

[saskbooknut]

Life is too short to stick with a shotgun with dimensions that works against success. My interest in shotguns is primarily guns suitable for hunting and non-registered shooting at trap and sporting clays. I am out to have fun.
I think that a shotgun for me should pattern approximately 60/40 to ensure success, and anything approaching "slightly high" at 25 to 40 yards is perfectly satisfactory.
I find that European ( Italian and Spanish) guns and British guns come closer to the ideal dimensions for me, with slender comb and slender forends. This being said, I have shot a Winchester Model 12 reasonably well, but many US shotguns feel like a club by comparison to their overseas sisters.
I have a new to me Beretta that is lovely to look at and lovely to hold as far as weight, but has too fat a comb, and no cast off, which would be required to make for the instant alignment that is so necessary in a shotgun.
There will have to be some stock mods to make this "my" gun as far as dimensions and handling.
Shotguns that don't shoot to point of aim, and/or don't have that instant feel of alignment, are destined for a new owner.

 

[SJB]

Stubblejumper has it right, raising the front bead is only effective in trap... really singles trap, where you have a moment to shoulder and check the gun fit before focusing on the field and for calling for a bird. In most other venues clay or feathered a proper fitting gun cannot be replaced by a gun that needs to be compensated for.
Now by doing a quick measure and calculation I can get a good idea if a gun is suitable for me (shoots flat) before I shoot it, if it shoots high I won't bother trying to fit it, just move on.

 

[stubblejumper]

Life is too short to stick with a shotgun with dimensions that works against success. My interest in shotguns is primarily guns suitable for hunting and non-registered shooting at trap and sporting clays. I am out to have fun.
I think that a shotgun for me should pattern approximately 60/40 to ensure success, and anything approaching "slightly high" at 25 to 40 yards is perfectly satisfactory.
I find that European ( Italian and Spanish) guns and British guns come closer to the ideal dimensions for me, with slender comb and slender forends. This being said, I have shot a Winchester Model 12 reasonably well, but many US shotguns feel like a club by comparison to their overseas sisters.
I have a new to me Beretta that is lovely to look at and lovely to hold as far as weight, but has too fat a comb, and no cast off, which would be required to make for the instant alignment that is so necessary in a shotgun.
There will have to be some stock mods to make this "my" gun as far as dimensions and handling.
Shotguns that don't shoot to point of aim, and/or don't have that instant feel of alignment, are destined for a new owner.

And I find that most European shotguns have nowhere near enough drop at comb for me, especially the Italian guns. The Browning and Remington shotguns usually fit me or are close enough for me to shoot them reasonably well as they come from the factory. After years of trying to find a SxS that fits me properly, I finally came across a used AYA #2 that fits me perfectly, but it is the exception as far as European guns go.